Bill Bowen's Comments on Ray Franz

by silentlambs 181 Replies latest jw friends

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Venice,

    So what the hell do you want??? you said you wanted a policy change, and I showed you one, now you say you want to change the JW mind control, as do I but that is a diff subject.

    You did not "show me" a policy change. You pointed out a political move by the Watchtower. The Watchtower's two witness rule is what brings horror to the children who have been raped. Witnesses are in a closed society. For many their family, friends and entire life are based on remaining in a good standing. Also, for those that truly believe, their keeping quiet is "approved by God"!

    Btw, I did not ask you for anything. I was just expressing my views.

    IW

  • VeniceIT
    VeniceIT

    I agree with you last post, so what is your probelem with Silentlambs?

    It seems you'd be for anyone or anything that is trying to change this and help victims. I just don't get where your comeing from

    ven

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Venice,

    I'm coming from this place: let's leave behind the sordid actions of the Watchtower. If you disagree with me that's fine. That's all it is, a disagreement. Why should I call into question your integrity? Why should I publicly state you have no moral standing? How am I to know what your inner thoughts are, your inner feelings and experiences throughout life? (I know this goes on all the time here, but as leaders, Ray Franz and Bill Bowen must be held to a higher standard, just as we hold elders and the GB to a higher standard)

    Bill Bowen has done a great job and I believe almost no one here disputes that. Raymond Franz has also. Honestly, if I had family still in the Org., I would sooner direct them to Ray Franz' books than to Bill Bowens Org. Bill's Org. is solely directed towards one cause, (and this is good) but it does not help those who are questioning the teachings of the Watchtower. Ray Franz' books do.

    You know what I wish? I wish with all my heart this whole thing had never happened. I wish that Bill Bowen was still doing what he does best and Ray Franz was still considered a "father" of the xJW movement. I truly do!

    But, fairy tales do come to an end. I should have learned this with the Watchtower but hell, the little girl in me still lives!

    Time to start over. Again!!!!

    IW

    Edited by - IslandWoman on 28 October 2002 18:13:3

  • avishai
    avishai

    IW, I appreciate your clarification of your stand. But why do you say BB is an apostate? And how do you know that people at the top are trying to put changes into effect? How does silent lambs hinder this? I'm not being faceitious , this time anyway, I'm truly curious, I wanna know!

  • Salud
    Salud

    Personally I do not understand why Amazing had to bring this out again. I was under the impression that it was an issue that was behind us. Nonetheless, I understand where Bill's comments are coming from, and I think a rebuttal was appropriate. Don't get me wrong. I will be the first one to admit that reading Ray Franz's books got me on the road out of the organization and for that I am thankful and grateful, and to this day would recommend reading these books to anyone interested in leaving, which I just did this past week.

    What I don't understand and find hard to believe is Ray stating that in his 40 years of Witness membership, not any cases of child molestation ever came to his attention. I must admit that when I served in Bethel in the early 80's I was aware of homosexual/pedophilia situations there, ones that happened way before I arrived at Bethel. In fact, one of the suicides there at Bethel was because the brother was found out to be a homosexual and could not live with the shame, hence felt this was his only way out.

    I also find disheartening Ray's slam on Silentlambs organization when he say's after admitting that child molestation is most despicable he goes on to say "Nonetheless, to focus on certain specific policies as if these are the root of the problem (two witness rule policy) is, I believe, to think superficially."

    Now I ask you, is it not the two witness rule policy that started this whole mess? Why would Ray say that? How would that be thinking superficially?

    Did Dinah need two witnesses to claim that her half-brother raped her? The two witness rule was not required when it came to rape, molestation, and murder. In fact when this policy is used, it is to keep one from saying something hurtful to an older man or being falsely accused of stealing his property. Yet the Watchtower, through rule making of the Society's writers, continues to advocate such a policy at the expense of people's lives and well being.

    Ray goes on to say that "Jesus did not seek to achieve their relief by endeavoring to create problems for the Pharisees movement with the Roman officials, so that the government would take punitive actions toward them. Rather, Christ Jesus spoke truths which enabled people in his time to free themselves from domination by the thinking and traditional teachings of the Pharisees".

    What!?! We are not talking about doctrine here, but about a man-made policy that hurts people. What are the Truths spoken here? What is Ray thinking??

    There are many more points where Ray's letter fails to see the problem with this policy, but suffice to say I will leave it at that.

    I could see why Bill felt a need for a rebuttal. I don't always agree with Bill. But I feel Bill was justified in answering to the comments from Ray. How could he not.

    In conclusion I feel the need to move on and not forget the big picture here, that this is for abused victims, children or adults. I don't follow a man but I do believe in a cause.

    Salud

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Avishai,

    But why do you say BB is an apostate?

    I don't think Bill is an apostate. I used that term because the Watchtower regards him as an apostate.

    And how do you know that people at the top are trying to put changes into effect?

    I have met some brothers at Bethel who are trying to effect change in a big way. But like Ray Franz they must act within the system, a system that is riddled with proud men.

    How does silent lambs hinder this?

    Silentlambs is stiffening the back of the opposers of change. These people are religiously haughty, they will not change to suit outsiders. As long as the two witness rule is touted by outsiders as something that needs correction the majority of the GB will resist change both from the outside and the inside.

    IW

  • abbagail
    abbagail
    I always wondered why he chose Silentlambs which is so close to "The Silence of the Lamb". Of course I got the Silent lamb connection from the bible but it seemed a poor choice considering the movie title that so closely matches it.

    Have any of the silentlambs.org critics ever even visited the website? The reason for the name is blatantly obvious. Put two and two together, i.e., sheep/lambs (yes, biblical) who have been silenced -- told to keep their abuse quiet, not speak about it, not tell, not go to the police, been DF'd for speaking about it, been shunned, disbelieved, etc. etc. -- hence the symbolic "X" over the mouths of the stuffed toy lambs. If everyone would take a few moments to visit the silentlambs website, on the Home Page you will find from Day One (March 2001):

    What are "silentlambs"?

    A "silentlamb" is a person who has been discouraged from getting help when he or she has been molested or abused.

    How hard was that to figure out? It has nothing to do with the movie. The silentlambs name is most appropriate and fitting.

    Thanks to Venice for sharing your first-hand knowledge and experiences.

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hey Salud,

    Thanks for your post - I've been thinking the same things for a couple of days.....but you stated it better.

    waiting

  • Mulan
    Mulan
    Did Dinah need two witnesses to claim that her half-brother raped her?

    There were two witnesses..........Dinah and Shechem. He didn't deny it. Small clarification.

  • Princess
    Princess

    Oh Please Grits, give me a break. I'm not stupid, I know what the name is all about. My point was the name is easily confused with a movie about a man who EATS PEOPLE.

    Must you tear apart everything I have to say that doesn't make Bill smell like a rose. For god's sake I do have an opinion and I don't care who doesn't agree. I think the name while very fitting was poorly chosen since many will think of Hannibal Lecter every time they hear it.

    Dinah was not raped by Shechem, he was her lover, not her half brother. I think you mean Absolom and Tamar.

    Rachel

    Edited by - Princess on 28 October 2002 23:22:41

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