Objections answered to the Deity of Christ

by aChristian 10 Replies latest jw friends

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    As one of Jehovah's Witnesses for many years I was, of course, fully opposed to the idea that the God of the Bible was a "Triune" God. For the first couple years after leaving the Witnesses I continued to hold strong anti-Trinity views. Several years ago I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. Afterwards I decided to consider both sides of this issue a little more closely than I had done in the past.

    After doing so it wasn't long before I found myself convinced that there is much less spiritually objectionable to the Trinity doctrine than there is to the common alternative. Those who reject the Trinity normally do so because they do not view Jesus Christ as Almighty God or as One Christians should rightly worship. Non-Trinitarians almost always end up viewing Jesus as only "a perfect man" and God's chief angel. Though Christ Himself said we are to "honor the Son just as we honor the Father" (John 5:23), non-Trinitarians never seem to do anything close.

    Yet, despite the fact that all non-Trinitarians seemed to give far too little honor to Christ, I had great trouble giving serious consideration to the Trinity doctrine because my mind told me it made absolutely no sense. How could three Divine Beings make up one God? After all, 1+1+1 does not equal 1. I knew that in Kindergarten.

    I realize now that I had only one problem in believing that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit could make up one God, or that one God could manifest Himself at different times, and simultaneously, in three different forms. That was my inability to fathom the existence of anything beyond our physical world.

    But then I found out something quite interesting. I discovered that scientists now firmly believe that dimensions beyond our four physical dimensions of space and time do indeed exist. For they now tell us that even though we can only directly observe four dimensions, there must somehow, somewhere, exist at least six other dimensions. For, they say, only when we allow for the existence of these extra dimensions, in which forces operate beyond our four dimensional laws of physics, are we able to account for all the properties and principles of "quantum mechanics."

    Take, for instance, "string theory." At the very heart of string theory is the proposal that the cosmos experienced a dimensional split at 10 to the minus 43 seconds after the Big Bang began. At that instant, the ten-dimensional expanding universe split into two pieces: a six-dimensional piece that permanently ceased expanding and never produced matter, and a four dimensional piece that became our dimensions of length, width, height and time. Modern science maintains that only that four dimensional system continued to expand, eventually producing matter and stars. (see Stephen Hawking's A Brief History Of Time, 1988)

    Now, since modern science believes in the existence of dimensions beyond the four we experience, it seemed to me that I should be able to believe that God exists both in and beyond the four space time dimensions in which we exist. For if as the Bible says God created our physical universe, He would not be bound by the laws of the physical universe which He had created any more than I would be bound by a cage I made to keep my parakeets in. While my birds would be locked inside the width, height and depth constraints of the cage I made, I would not be so constrained. If as the Bible says God created our physical universe, He would have to be omnipresent. For, if He was not, He would be bound by the width, height and depth constraints of the "cage" He had made. The same goes for other natural laws. If God made them, He must have existed before they were made, and so He would not then have been bound by them. And He would not now be bound by them either, unless He chose to climb inside the "cage" He made, close the door and throw away the key.

    I also learned that Einstein proved that time is only a dimension of our physical universe. And that time began when our physical universe began. Thus, if Christ existed "with God" (John1:1) before the creation of our physical universe He must have existed before time began, and His origin can truthfully be said to be "from the days of time indefinite." (Micah 5:2 NWT) Or for those who prefer plain English, "from everlasting," and "from the days of eternity." (KJV, NAS) So, though in one sense God's Son had a beginning, in another sense He did not. For if Jesus Christ has existed since before time began, when did He begin?

    It also helped me to remember that Jesus Christ is God's "Only Begotten Son." (John 3:16) To be "begotten," according to both the Biblical and dictionary definitions, means to be produced, not out of nothing, but from a parent's own body. For instance, the Bible tells us that Abraham "begat Isaac" "from his own body." (Gen.15:4; 25:19) And it is widely understood that Isaac pictured Jesus Christ.

    Children who are begotten by a human parent, once they are full grown, are also absolutely equal to their parents in every way. In physical stature, in strength, in intelligence, etc. Granted, the child may not have the same position in business or government as his father but, in reality, that child is the parent's equal in every way. I, for instance, will always show my father the special honor a son shows to his father, but at the same time I will always be my father's equal. So, if Jesus Christ was begotten from his Father's own body, so to speak, before time began, he is both eternal (without a beginning in time), as Micah 5:2 says, and his Father's equal, as Philippians 2:6 tells us in most translations of the Bible.

    Another thing I kept in mind was that our fathers are three dimensional physical people. As such they occupy only a few cubic feet of space. As their sons, begotten from their bodies, we too are three dimensional people who occupy only a few cubic feet of space. For fathers who beget sons always do so "after their own kind," so to speak. Now the Bible tells us that God is not a three dimensional being occupying only a few cubic feet of space. The Bible indicates God is omnipresent. He exists everywhere at the same time. So, if Christ was begotten from God's own body, so to speak, and "after his kind," so to speak, He too would have God's own omnipresent nature.

    When I was born the cord connecting my mother and I was cut. At that time I was no longer physically a part of either one of my parents. We soon became even more "disconnected" when I was placed in the hospital nursery fifty feet down the hall. Right now I might be in New York and both my parents might be thousands of miles away from me in California. But if God begat a Son after His own kind, so to speak, He and His Son would both be of the same substance, and thus both omnipresent. If this is so, it becomes very difficult to think of them as two separate Spirit Beings. And since they both have and send forth the same Holy Spirit, as Scripture says they do, from their mutual omnipresent position, it is not difficult to think of God as "three in one." In fact it then becomes more difficult to think of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as separate entities.

    I am now convinced that all the Scriptures pertaining to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and to their Deity, can only be understood and fully harmonized by someone who does not attempt to put the God of the Bible into some kind of four dimensional box.

    Some common JW objections to Christ's deity are answered below.

    OBJECTION #1. Jn. 14:28 reads, "... my Father is greater than I." If Jesus is equal to the Father, as the Trinity definition states, then why did Jesus say His Father was "greater" than He?

    ANSWER: Jesus spoke these words after He humbled Himself and became a servant (Phil. 2:5-8). Furthermore, the word "greater" refers to OFFICE or POSITION and not NATURE! God is God because of His "NATURE" (Gal. 4:8). Jesus is saying in Jn. 14:28 that His Father has a "greater" OFFICE or POSITION than He does. This is how the word "greater" is used as clearly seen in Gen 41:40. That verse reads, "You [Joseph] shall be in charge of my palace, and all my people are to submit to your orders. Only with respect to the throne will I [Pharaoh] be GREATER than you," (NIV). Pharaoh was "greater" than Joseph only by OFFICE or POSITION, but not NATURE. The nature of Pharaoh and Joseph was the same, that is, human being. Similarly, the president of the USA is GREATER than we are, as far as OFFICE or POSITION is concerned, but certainly not by NATURE!

    OBJECTION #2. 1 Cor. 11:3 reads, "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." If Christ has a "head," then He can't be God.

    ANSWER: Does this show Jesus inferior to the Father by NATURE? If one will insist that it does, then to be consistent, he would have to say the same regarding the woman to the man! Though a wife is subject to her husband in the Lord, she is NOT inferior to him by nature. The same is true with the relationship between the Lord Jesus and the Father.

    OBJECTION #3. 1 Cor. 15:28 says, "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." If Jesus is "subject" to the Father, He can't be God.

    ANSWER: Again, this argument is similar to Arguments #1 and #2. This verse doesn't refer to NATURE either, but only to OFFICE or POSITION! In Lk. 2:51, the SAME GREEK WORD translated "subject" is found. No one would say that Jesus was inferior BY NATURE to Joseph and Mary from Lk. 2:51, which would be the natural conclusion if the word "subject" refers to NATURE! Likewise, Jesus is NOT inferior BY NATURE to the Father, since He is God. See Jn. 1:1, Greek; Jn. 20:28; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1 and 1 Jn. 5:20.

    OBJECTION #4. Mk. 13:32 declares, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." If Jesus was God, then He would have had this knowledge.

    ANSWER: Again, we must bear in mind that Jesus is true man besides true God. The Lord Jesus spoke these words when He was limited by His humanity and was relying upon the Father entirely (Acts 10:38; Jn. 12:49). After His resurrection, however, Jesus would have to be all-knowing, since He can be prayed to (Jn. 14:14, Greek; Acts 7:59; 9:14,21; 1 Cor. 1:2). In other words, if a group of Christians is praying to Jesus in Canada, Mexico and Japan at the same time, He would have to be all-knowing to know their requests! Also, since prayer is a form of worship, it would be idolatry to pray to Jesus unless He was and is God by NATURE. (If He wasn't God by NATURE, then the early Church was guilty of idolatry by praying to Jesus, which is IMPOSSIBLE!)

    OBJECTION #5. Lk. 18:19 reads, "And Jesus said unto him, 'Why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, that is, God.'" God is "good," but Jesus isn't. Therefore, Jesus isn't God.

    ANSWER: If one would look closely at this verse, he should quickly notice that Jesus NEVER said that He Himself was NOT 'good'! He merely asked, "Why callest thou me good?" Jesus wanted to know "WHY," that's all! Furthermore, Jesus openly declared elsewhere that He Himself was the "GOOD shepherd" (Jn. 10:11). Psalm 23 declares YHWH as the "shepherd," but He isn't called the "GOOD" shepherd, the description Jesus reserved for Himself!

    OBJECTION #6. Jesus is shown in the Scriptures as being created in Rev. 3:14; Col. 1:15; Prov. 8:22 and Psa. 2:7. If He was created, He can't be God, since God is eternal.

    ANSWER: (A) Rev. 3:14 states that Jesus is "the beginning of the creation of God." The word translated "beginning" is ARCHE in the Greek. It also means ORIGIN besides BEGINNING. Since ORIGIN and SOURCE are synonymous, we can now understand why this verse reads in the N. A. B. "the SOURCE of God's creation." This verse doesn't show Jesus is created, but that He is the Creator! After all, since Jesus created EVERYTHING that was created (Col. 1:16), how could He be part of His own creation?

    (B) Col. 1:15 reports that Jesus is "the firstborn of every creature." Please notice that it does NOT say "first-created"! This word, "firstborn," has more than one possible meaning. If one would read Gen. 41:51,52; 48:17-19 and Jer. 31:9 he would see that it can mean PREEMINENT. That is how it is used in Col. 1:15 as the context reveals from verses 15 through 18. Jesus is PREEMINENT over creation because: (1) He created everything that was created, (2) ALL created things were created for Him, (3) He existed before ALL created things and (4) ALL created things are held together because of Him.

    (C) Prov. 8:22 states that Wisdom was brought forth in the beginning. Since Jesus is called the "Wisdom of God" (1 Cor. 1:24), He was created, according to the argument.

    What one must decide is: IS THIS WISDOM MENTIONED IN PROV. 8 REFERRING TO JESUS, BEFORE HE CAME TO EARTH? According to Jn. 1:1,14, Jesus was called the "Word" before He came to earth, NOT Wisdom (or even "Michael" as JWs teach)!

    Secondly, the chapter reveals Wisdom in verse 19 as the PROPER USE OF KNOWLEDGE as shown by Job 28:15. Therefore, the Wisdom of Prov. 8 is personified and not really a person at all!

    Finally, since Jesus is the WISDOM OF GOD and the POWER OF GOD (1 Cor. 1:24), for one to say that He was created is to say that there was a point in time in the distant past when God existed WITHOUT Wisdom and Power, which is ludicrous!

    (D) Psa. 2:7; Jn. 3:16; etc. state that Jesus was "begotten." Does this mean that Jesus had a beginning as we did, since we were begotten by our fathers and at that point we had our beginning? The answer to Psa. 2:7 is found in Acts 13:30-33. There we learn that this verse from Psalms refers to the resurrection of Christ! Secondly, the word translated "only begotten" in Jn. 3:16,18 and 1 Jn. 4:9 in regards to Christ is also used in Heb. 11:17 in regards to Isaac. Was Isaac the FIRST child of Abraham? No! See Gen. 16:15,16. Was Isaac the ONLY child of Abraham? No! See Gen. 16:15,16; 25:1,2. Was Isaac the UNIQUE ONE-OF-A-KIND son of Abraham? Yes! This is how this same Greek word is used in reference to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the UNIQUE ONE-OF-A-KIND Son to the Father, but NOT created. Micah 5:2 refers to Jesus the SAME WAY Psa. 93:2 refers to God. Jesus is "from everlasting" and therefore can't be part of creation. Since He isn't part of creation, then He must be God, since only God is eternal!

    OBJECTION #7. In the Bible, Jesus is NEVER called "God the Son," but instead "the Son of God." Therefore, He can't be God.

    ANSWER: This argument has a trace of truth in it for the words, "God the Son," are NOT found in the Bible. However, when an "open" student of the Scriptures examines all the verses relevant to the deity of Christ, he will conclude that Jesus is both God and man. How can this be? It's possible the same way Jesus can be both shepherd and lamb and the high priest and sin offering at the same time! Concerning words NOT found in the Bible, the word, "Bible," isn't found in the Bible! Neither is the word "Millennium" found in the Bible, even though it is certainly taught in Rev. 20.

    OBJECTION #8. If Jesus is God, who was He praying to in the Garden, Himself?

    ANSWER: This question stems from a misconception about HOW Christians believe Jesus is God. We believe Jesus is God BY NATURE. We do NOT believe Jesus is the person of the Father! He can NOT be the Father, since He prayed to the Father in Jn. 17! He certainly wasn't praying to Himself. The Bible teaches that Jesus is God by NATURE, as is the Father and the Holy Spirit. There is only one true God by NATURE. See Gal. 4:8. The Trinity is NOT defined as three Gods in one, but instead three Persons in one God. God is the NATURE of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    OBJECTION #9. If Jesus is God, then who ran the universe while He was dead for three days?

    ANSWER: Again, this is no problem to answer when one understands that Jesus is NOT the person of the Father. The Father and the Son are two separate and distinct personalities.

    OBJECTION #10. Jesus can't be God, since God can't die!

    ANSWER: Remember, Jesus isn't only God by nature, but also man! Jesus could die as any other human, because He became man besides being God by NATURE.

    OBJECTION #11. Jesus can't be God, because He said that the Father was His God in Jn. 20:17.

    ANSWER: Jesus said this as a man. This, however, doesn't change the clear evidence that shows Jesus is God! The Apostle Thomas called Jesus, "My Lord and my God," Jn. 20:28. The Greek literally says, "The Lord of me and the God of me." Remember also that Thomas was a strict MONOtheistic Jew. Was the Apostle Thomas "in the truth?" Obviously he was. Was the Apostle Thomas part of the early church? Obviously he was. Therefore, the early church believed that Jesus is God. If you claim to believe and teach like the early church, then shouldn't you proclaim the same? Are you in the same "light" that the Apostles were in? Furthermore, the Father identifies Jesus as "God" in Heb. 1:8. Again, the Greek says, "the God." Certainly the Father knows the true identity of the Son. Also, Heb. 1:6 declares that "ALL the angels worship Him [Jesus]." Who do the angels worship, according to Rev. 19:10? According to Heb. 1:6, the angel of Rev. 19:10 WORSHIPS Jesus! In fact, Jesus' disciples WORSHIPED Him too (Matt. 28:9). Why do you think Jesus received this WORSHIP from His disciples? Are you following the example of the early disciples regarding this? Did you know it would have been idolatry for those early disciples, who were "in the truth" to worship Jesus, unless He was God? Isaiah 9:6 tells us that God's people would "Call" Jesus Christ their "Mighty God." Do Jehovah's Witnesses ever call Jesus Christ their "Mighty God" or even their "mighty god." No, they do not. But Christians do. Was Isaiah a false prophet? In the next chapter of Isaiah (10:21) Jehovah is called Israel's "Mighty God." Do you really think Isaiah was talking about God's people having two different "Mighty Gods"? The Jewish people served only one God.

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Thanks for spelling out your views and for telling about your ex-JW background. Does something this deep belong over on the "Bible Study" forum? (It would stay closer to the "top" longer over there.)

    Although I can no longer subscribe to all WTS dogma, I still believe no Trinity exists. Part of the problem is that the views of the Trinitarian believers vary so widely, almost from person to person. Some emphasize the "duality" of Father and Son, as you seem to, leaving the holy spirit out. Other Trinitarians would disagree with you and say "The Son = The Father" in terms of where one appears in the scripture, you can easily substitute the other. Really just one personality.

    My other problem is that you have to go far beyond the realm of the Bible into either intuition (which most Trinitarians use) or into terribly uncommon and sophisticated ideas such as scientific "string theories" and Einsteinin propositions.

    I won't answer point by point because this isn't the Bible Study forum. But I'll focus on objections 1, 2 and 11 and perhaps leave others for another day.

    In your answer to objections 1 and 2, you clearly conceded that the Son's "Office" is different than his Father's. When I approach the Father in prayer through his Son, that difference in their "offices" is helpful in clarifying things for me. It would not help me to know that they are co-equal, co-existent or anything else. If one is subject to the other, like a wife to a husband, that tells me which one of the two is directing things/making final decisions, and who else I can get help from (or serve, to view things less selfishly).

    Regarding objection #11 and John 20:17 ("Jesus called his Father his God.") You fell prey here to a tactic that Trinitarians often seem to use, that is you quote them one scripture, and they jump to several others that they want to fall back on. John 20:17 is helpful, because it helps me understand that Jesus has a God just like I do. Sorry if it sounds too simple-minded, but sometimes the most profound truths are the simplest ones!

    I'm not trying to get involved in a lengthy theological debate. I think we both believe the same basic things about Christ's love, salvation, etc. And I'm happy that you are open enough to post your views. I don't share all of them, but it's great we can still get along in this forum!

    Thanks for listening.

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    : you have to go far beyond the realm of the Bible into either intuition (which most Trinitarians use) or into terribly uncommon and sophisticated ideas such as scientific "string theories" and Einsteinin propositions.

    On the other hand, non-trinitarians seem to believe that the God who created our universe and who has existed before time began has a nature which can be easily understood by human beings and can be explained in simple human terms.

    : John 20:17 is helpful, because it helps me understand that Jesus has a God just like I do.

    When Jesus called his Father his God he had, "not yet ascended to the Father."(John 20:17) That being the case, he was still "lower than the angels." (Heb. 2:9) Remember, he gave up his divine nature to become a mere man in order to die for us. (Phil. 2:6-8) In such a position he rightly called his Father his God. However, he is no longer in such a position. For he now sits with his Father on his Father's throne (Rev. 3:21).

    JWs would have us believe that Christians who accept the deity of Christ and the Trinity doctrine do so against all biblical evidence. The fact of the matter is that many Christians do so because they find that only then are they able to reconcile all of the scriptures pertaining to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and to their Deity.

    : I'm happy that you are open enough to post your views. I don't share all of them, but it's great we can still get along in this forum!

    Isn't it though? I have no problem respecting someone's beliefs on this subject, and on many others, even though they disagree with my own beliefs. I also have no problem accepting those who disagree with me on this subject, and on many others, as my Christian brothers and sisters. It's too bad that Jehovah's Witnesses disfellowship anyone who disagrees with any of their present teachings, even if the one doing so has a solid scriptural basis for their different understandings. "Where the Spirit of God is there is freedom." (2 Cor. 3:17)

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Amen to your last paragraph! I think everyone should be able to reason out their beliefs and be open to a fair discussion. As we have learned, such open discussion gets choked out on inside the bureaucracy. (Cough, cough!)

    The mystery of time's begining (or lack thereof) and God's infinite existence is both awe-inspiring and yet at times, frustrating to the human mind. We only understand the boundaries of our own existence. Jehovah himself acknowledges this in the book of Isaiah -- i.e., his thoughts and ways are higher than ours.

    I believe Jah has done His best at explaining enough of himself to us, in terms we can understand. There are some things we do not need to understand in order to be happy and to serve him. But what he has revealed to us in his Word is truthful. We just need to unlock it!

  • ianao
    ianao
    Does something this deep belong over on the "Bible Study" forum? (It would stay closer to the "top" longer over there.)

    I think it does belong in that forum, IMO.

    aChristian, Simon can move it for you if you ask him to...

  • logical
    logical

    If there was a trinity, then it would be clearly stated in scriptures. The fact the OPPOSITE is clearly stated, that is there is only ONE God Almighty, Jehovah, doesnt that show you something?

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    : If there was a trinity, then it would be clearly stated in scriptures.

    So, it is your position that all Bible truths must be "clearly stated in the scriptures." Would that include such things as Jesus Christ being Michael the archangel, the Watchtower Society being Christ's "fathful and discreet slave," Christ returning and being invisibly enthroned in 1914, the first resurrection taking place in 1918, and the heavenly calling being completed by the 1930s? Just wondering.

  • Undecided
    Undecided

    Hi there,

    Please, could you show me one thing that Christ said would happen that could be shown to be true and a result of his or God's actions?
    All I see is speculation or some emotioinal feeling about his giving you salvation. I have never seen a prayer answered that couldn't be described as coincidence or part of every day happenstance.

    What proof other than faith can you give of any of Christ promises? Is God really interested in us humans at all, if so give evidence.

    I really need something to base faith on, not just an inward feeling that so many have, who disagree on the meaning of scripture and have to establish so many different religious institutions to satisfy the whims of the membership.

    Has religion really brought love to the earth, or conflict? I see the same traits in animals that humans seem to follow. What does spirituality do for humans? Atheist seem to be have as much feeling for others as christians. Just my feelings right now.

    Regards,

    Ken P.

  • logical
    logical
    the Watchtower Society being Christ's "fathful and discreet slave," Christ returning and being invisibly enthroned in 1914, the first resurrection taking place in 1918, and the heavenly calling being completed by the 1930s? Just wondering.

    I dont believe any of that.

    Now back onto the trinity, you are a dis-grace! How can you turn from the truth clearly stated, Jehovah alone is God Almighty, and actually compare the CREATION with Him?

    Dont you see you are up to your neck in creature worship?

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    : How can you turn from the truth clearly stated, Jehovah alone is God Almighty, and actually compare the CREATION with Him? Dont you see you are up to your neck in creature worship?

    Jesus was not "created." He was begotten. There is a big difference. Read my post. He is not a "creature." A creature is a created thing. The Bible tells us that Jesus is not a created thing. He cannot be. For the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ himself created ALL things. To hide this fact the JW NWT inserts the word "other" in brackets between the words "all" and "things." Real Bibles tell us this about Jesus, "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him." (Col. 1:16)

    So, I do not worship the creation. I worship the Creator.

    Of course, I already dealt with this objection of yours in my post above (see objection # 6), which I doubt you read.

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