by normie67 56 Replies latest jw friends
Normie and Logical,
Alan and I made some valid points useing the Bible as well as the WT publications. Why do you ignore our posts?
Is it that you both have that brick wall blocking your thinking Logical speaks of.
Come on and have some guts and show us what truth you have. Answer Alan and my response and stop ignoring the real truth.
Sorry normie's thought and why I'm still in....I think???
Normie, it's your thought, man. If there's something wrong with it, change it. If there isn't, then keep it and don't apologize.
Look, man... if you want to take this one thing and think to yourself that it overrides all the other stuff, the lying and false prophecy and covering up child abuse and so on, so that you aren't forced to actually act upon your conscience, then go ahead man, think it. But if you bring it up for discussion in a forum like this, then you've gotta know that people are going to present opposing views. You knew that when you did it.
Sounds to me like you need somebody to convince you. Your insides are crying out for you to stop living a hypocritical life, but your head is trying to shush the voice with this crap about preaching.
It's called "cognitive dissonance." Looks to me like you have some work to do in your thought process. Good luck with it.
COMF
But nobody but NOBODY has refuted to my mind, the fact NOBODY does the evangelizing work Jesus did. I mean what Org on the face of the globe compares to the witnesses!!
WRONG! Oh, so wrong. There is a group that is about 20 years old now, based in Boston, MA, called the International Church of Christ. In fact, they may just be the JWs of the 21st century, after the WTBTS either collapses or goes mainstream.
They engage in a preaching work and Bible study work that is, if anything, more intensive than JWs.
They also believe in shunning and most of the other little goodies that JWs espouse. In fact, when one of my co-workers was being hounded by these little bast.... er, proselytizers, I thought she was being contacted by JWs.
They have quickly utilized the web to not only preach about Christ, but also to set up support groups for ex-members, whose lives have been brutalized by ICOC just as badly as JWs have been brutalized by the WTBTS.
Look them up, Normie. You might find more "truth". (and, yes, I am saying this sarcastically)
On an interesting side note: In the last chapter of "Crisis of Conscience" Brother Franz brings out a thought provoking point. He says on page 385
"That the "good news" centers on this very expression of mercy by God through Christ and his ransom can be demonstrated by anyone who will take the time to look up each occurence of that phrase by means of a concordance. Of the more than one hundred occurences of the expression "good news" in the bible, there are eight references to the good news "of the kingdom" but there are scores of references to the good news "about the christ" This is because God's kingdom, the expression of his royal sovreignty, is all centered in his Son and the things that God has done through him and will yet do through him."
So as many others on this thread have posted, even though JWs preach, what they peach is not the message that the original christians preached. Even though JWs say they are a christian religion, somewhere along the line Jesus has kind of fallen through the cracks in the organizational machinery, and has been put into the background.
Jesus did say that the good news would be preached in all the nations...But I don't recall him saying that this good news will be preached only by one organization centered in NYC. That is the WTBTSs take on it.
Just my 2 cents.
Eyes
normie
I understand your point. Infact this is/was something I want(ed) an explanation to.
One thing I keep in mind is explained in the WTS own publications....
“The kingdom of God is in your midst.” (Lu 17:20, 21)
*** it-2 167 Kingdom of God ***
In what way was God’s Kingdom ‘in the midst’ of those to whom Jesus preached?
Trusting in Jehovah’s power to protect him and grant him success, Jesus entered his public ministry, announcing to Jehovah’s covenant people that “the appointed time has been fulfilled,” resulting in the approach of the Kingdom of God. (Mr 1:14, 15) In determining in what sense the Kingdom was “near,” his words to certain Pharisees may be noted, namely, that “the kingdom of God is in your midst.” (Lu 17:21) Commenting on this text, The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible observes: “Although frequently cited as an example of Jesus’ ‘mysticism’ or ‘inwardness,’ this interpretation rests chiefly upon the old translation, ‘within you,’ [KJ, Dy] understood in the unfortunate modern sense of ‘you’ as singular; the ‘you’ ([hy·mon']) is plural (Jesus is addressing the Pharisees—ÞLu 17 Üvs. 20) . . . The theory that the kingdom of God is an inner state of mind, or of personal salvation, runs counter to the context of this verse, and also to the whole NT presentation of the idea.” (Edited by G. A. Buttrick, 1962, Vol. 2, p. 883) Since “kingdom [ba·si·lei'a]” can refer to the “royal dignity,” it is evident that Jesus meant that he, God’s royal representative, the one anointed by God for the kingship, was in their midst.
I don't totaly agree with all the above...eg; The WT disagrees that
"The theory that the kingdom of God is an inner state of mind, or of personal salvation"
Since I have come to understand that the Kingdom can be a part of a Christian by Holy Spirit, or within your midst.
The point is that the society say that the King of that Kingdom was among them at that time, he still is today. . The Kingdom is Jesus, so preaching about the Kingdom is the bearing witness to the Christ and all he as done for mankind.
That's make two cents worth anyway,
qwerty. (by the way I am still in as well, for family reasons)
normie67,
Whilst I can sympathise with your sincere question regarding the importance of the preaching work of the JW's . I would be very interested to hear your thoughts regarding Scorpions and Gophers comments on this thread.
I have recently become inactive, and have had to face such questions as yours myself. The points brought out by Scorpion and Gopher, definitely have a bearing for me, as to WHAT exactly we should be telling people when we go into the ministry? So much has changed, so many books you can no longer use in the ministry…now apostate material What are we to tell people???
Scorpion pointed out
*****Galatians 1:8-9 which says:
"However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed. As we have said above, I also now again, Whoever it is that is declaring to you as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed." (NWT)
Without going into the false statements, doctrines as well as all the false prophecies of the LDS faith, I will stick to the teachings of the JWs being this forum is for that. Did the apostle Paul teach the disciples in Galatia that Christ would return in 1914 and set up a visible organization with headquarters in Brooklyn, New York? When Jehovah's Witnesses preach their "gospel" or "good news" of the kingdom, they are actually preaching the doctrine of Christ's invisible return in 1914. They freely admit that the good news preached by Christians down through the centuries is not the same as what Jehovah's Witnesses preach.
...the Kingdom witnessing of Jehovah's Witnesses since 1914 has been far different from what Christendom's missionaries have published both before and since 1914. "Different"-how so?...What Jehovah's Witnesses have preached world wide since 1918 is something unique...the preaching of this good news of the Messianic kingdom as having been established in the heavens in 1914...(The WT 10/1/80 pages 28-29.
Of course with all what was said about the generation of 1914 not passing away before the end coming, I see an absense of mentioning the 1914 date today. Does this mean the good news of the WT will once again change as it so conveniently does when proven false, and how many will still strive for that rotten carrot dangling in front of them? And how many will continue to preach a different good news other than that of Christ?******
In addition, you have the wonderfully misleading talk of 'Millions now Living Will Never Die' 1918. How can you reconcile such false food at the improper time? Food, that no doubt made people sick with dissapointment?
Gopher said
****However, the main identifying feature of Christians is to be love. You know that John13:35 backs that up.****
For me LOVE and HUMILITY should STAND OUT from an organization claiming to follow/imitate Christ and Jehovah.
Just my two pennyworth
Latte
(I'm sorry if any of this has already been covered but I could'nt post yesterday)
Normie,
You seem pretty occupied with the way JWs interpret these specific scriptures. When JWs read Mt 28:19,20 or Mt 24:14, they get a mental image of some people in suits & dresses knocking on doors with magazines in hand.
So, since this is (almost) unique to JWs, a JW will reinforce his belief that JWs are the only ones fulfilling these words. But these texts don't say anything about house-to-house evangelizing. In fact, we actually know thet Jesus prohibited this superficial form of preaching; he said 'Do not go from house to house.' (Lk 10:5-7)
If we assume, for sake of argument, that Jesus actually said "go out and make disciples of all the nations", we see that Jesus were discussing the objective, not the method. Christians should not go through the motions of knocking on doors or whatever, but do what it took to convert people. And JW-style "cold calls" to a hostile audience is clearly counter-productive; sects that do not use this controversial method currently increase faster (pentecostalites, SDA, others).
Unlike what some JWs seem to think, religions almost exclusively spread through social networks. The typical convert is a family member or a friend of somebody already in the sect. You no doubt know this from experience. Not one in a thousand cold door-calls are successfull, while an eager JW can often convert his or (typically) her family and a few friends in a few years. Sociologists Stark and Bainbridge directly observed the "Moonies" when they first came to the U.S., and observed no cold conversions whatsoever. JW statistics demonstrate that the same, more or less, applies to them.
Seeing, as we do, that Christianity started with a handful of people around 50 AD and ended up overtaking the Roman empire and later the whole of Europe, America and sizeable portions of all other continents, it's hard to escape the conclusion that this evangelization work succeeded beyond any reasonable expectations.
When you assert that JWs are the only one evangelizing, you have in your head the picture of a typical JW going around knocking on doors. But nowehere does Jesus ask anybody to do this; quite the contrary.
Of course, a member of a mainstream Christian religion will conclude that the western world has been evangelized; all their neighbours are Christian or at least know as much about that religion as can be imagined. JWs only go door to door in these countries because they take the secterian position that all other Christian sects and denominations are "false Christians." If you remove this belief, the whole idea of going door-to-door in Christian neighbourhoods is absurd.
- Jan
To AlanF and Scorpion,
Sorry for the long wait on my replies, and also allow me to explain why my replies may seem short, or "glib" as someone referred.
I have very common situation that many of you may have had at one time. One mate has doubts about things and the other doesn't . That's my situation here. My doubts about things about the Org has come up time to time. I have discussed these with my wife. When we get in these discussions she gets upset and blindly backs the Org, although I point out logical discrepencies.She really doesn't listen to my explanation, but staunchly and stubbornly sticks to the Bible (i.e. Org)She has seen me on the computer doing some research in the past. She totally flipped out when she found me on Old H2O!!!!
So that is why from time to time I getmore time to make longer replies. Usually when shes at work. Other times like a few days ago, shes home and I have to cautious not to get caught here at JW net. That may sound foolish to some, but not in my situation. So I hope all understand and can be patient.
The importance of the ministry of Jesus is evidently clear. I think we can all agree that telling others about the Kingdom, that Jesus spoke about is extremely important!! My whole feeling on the matter, Is JWs focus intently on telling others about God's Kingdom!! I will agree that the arrangement of car groups (4-6 PEOPLE IN A CAR) and the stopping for breaks and etc, may amuse some, myself included. But don't forget the intent...too help others know about The Kingdom Hope!!! Some may say that they don't associate us with God's Kingdom when they see us in the door-to-door work. Just pushing magazines and the like. And it is true they don't listen to us most of the time with preconceived Ideas(don't believe in Jesus,etc), but the point is we are there to help them. If they look at the front of the Watchtower it says "Annoucing Jehovah's Kingdom", so we do they best we can!!I do believe tho that this work and the unprecedented scale that it is being done on a Global scale should show at leasst some Divine backing!! Am i right??
That's all the time I have at this moment. Sorry if I don't come off combative. These thoughts that I share may sound a bit vague, but they are thoughts that best explain where I am at this juncture of my life. In dealing with all things that all JWs at one time or another may dealt with.
Thanks
normie67
Hi Normie,
I understand your situation with your wife, as I was in a similar one for many years. It can take a long time to come to grips with problems in the JW religion.
Rather than restate what I told you in my last post on this subject -- which are important things you need to deal with -- let me point out a simple fact: The worldwide population of various Pentecostal denominations went from a handful around 1900 to more than 200 million today. If you judge them by their success in "making disciples", having succeeded on a much wider and more "unprecedented scale" than Jehovah's Witnesses, do you think it more likely that they or JWs have God's backing? Who do you think has had more success in telling the world about "God's Kingdom"? Why do you so answer?
AlanF
Wow look how many people are reading THIS subject...interesting..
Well if all you have to do is contact people, no matter how lamo the content of that contact is, and then make notes about who you contacted and keep track of it to impress people higher up in the organization...then I have to give the prize to the Nazis. Yes...they contacted millions upon millions of people with their "message" of the pure race and the evil of the Jews, the homosexuals and the Jehovahs Witnesses...campaigning tirelessly with their message of hope, backed by God of course, and their records were immaculate to the point of anal...every person, every address, every detail detailed,,,every DEATH. So...by your definition, they should have the TRUTH because they were sooo very thorough in covering their territory with their message eh?
The Society would love you to believe they are the ONLY of everything that is holy...the CHOSEN, the BLESSED, the EMPOWERED, the SAVED the GREATEST, the ONLY ones not going to be destroyed by Gawd...and frankly that propaganda is no different than Hitlers. The threat of destruction for those who dont LISTEN TO THE MESSAGE...the same.
The attitude...identical.
