Could man have free will if God cansee the future?

by sleepy 55 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Larsguy
    Larsguy

    God must have known when he gave the angels and man "free will" that some percentage would rebel. So be it. He would give them their time to do so as long as it didn't overly disrupt everything else. But then for those who willingly choose God, their happiness would be greater after the fact and he'd just give him everlasting life.

    But just because God can see into the future and even reports on some things doesn't mean we have lost our free will. It should be considered no more than telling a person who likes to ice skate that one day they would win the gold medal. They may be destined to win the gold medal but they might understand that since they love ice skating so much.

    Plus it's kinda good to know a little bit about the future so we can plan, like the 1000 years and what will hapen eventually. It motivates us for the possibilities. For instance, just knowing this world's conditions with Satan ruling is temporary encourages us to wait on the day when the earth is a paradise again. It's reassuring that life is not in vain and God's purpose for mankind will be realized.

    I think God knows that we would not be completely happy if we didn't have a chance to choose or reject God though he hopes everyone chooses him though he knows everyone won't. So it must be all about the people who do. Their joy in God is greater if through adversity they show they prefer to do good and it's nice to know, with eternal life in view, that that life is what you would have chosen if given the chance. So it works out.

    L.G.

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate

    >>God must have known when he gave the angels and man "free will" that some percentage would rebel.<<

    So. Your God KNEW of evil before it existed?

    Then, that means YOUR God is the source of all evil.

    Bah Humbug on that God. (Glad he's not mine.)

    Happy Sunday.

  • Bleep
    Bleep

    I see those little wheels turning so let me add some good sources.

    Misuse of Free Will

    Our first parents lost sight of the fact that they were not created to prosper apart from God and his laws. They decided to become independent of God, thinking that would improve their lives. But this was an abuse of their freedom. They stepped outside the God-ordained limits of free will.-Genesis, chapter 3.

    Why did God not just destroy Adam and Eve and start over with another human pair? Because his universal sovereignty and his way of ruling had been brought into question. His being Almighty God and the Creator of all creatures gives him the right to rule over them. Since he is All-Wise, his rule is best for all creatures. But God-rule was now challenged.

    Could humans do better than being ruled by God? The Creator certainly knew the answer to that question. A sure way for humans to find out was to allow them the unlimited freedom they desired. Therefore, one reason, among others, why God has permitted wickedness and suffering is to show beyond any doubt whether human rule independent of him can succeed.

    Adam and Eve brought suffering upon themselves and their offspring. They 'reaped what they sowed.' (Galatians 6:7) "They have acted ruinously on their own part; they are not [God's] children, the defect is their own."-Deuteronomy 32:5.

    Our first parents had been warned that independence from God's rule would result in their death. (Genesis 2:17) That proved to be the truth. By leaving God, they left their source of health and life. They degenerated until death overtook them.-Genesis 3:19.

    Thereafter, God permitted enough time for the human family to demonstrate fully whether any political, social, or economic system they devised apart from his rule would prove completely satisfying. Would any of these systems usher in a happy, peaceful world free from crime or war? Would any develop material prosperity for all? Would any conquer sickness, old age, and death? God's rule had been designed to accomplish all those things.-Genesis 1:26-31.

    Source from Watchtower Society. Happy Capp?

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Biblexaminer

    You're so funny. I'm not on any side, you know.

    Janh

    At the time (no pun intended) it made sense, because science showed that time and space had a beginning. God had preexisted this, so he was outside it, obviously. I could replace the word god with any other entity, entities or even civilisations in other dimensions than those in our space/time continuum. If they existed, and if they wanted, and developed the technology, they might be able to see our space/time in this parade type fashion.

    Then every event from the origin of the universe until the end of time is already decided,
    Is the act of observing the same as deciding? In this parade illustration, from the point of view of those in the parade, there is freedom of choice. The only way there wouldn't be is if the outside observer moved from being an observer to an interactor. Why couldn't there be a third way? Scientists, by using telescopes, intercept light that has been traveling for thousands or millions of years. Observing a nova or quasar in this fashion is a far cry from interacting w them. The nova or quasar never felt its freedom being impinged on because of observations.

    If it is just possible to know the future in detail, then there is no such thing as free will.
    We are stuck in time. It pushes us forward relentlessly. We are powerless in its flow. Just this fact shows that our socalled freedom isn't that great. Those stuck in time, aren't able to know the future. Beings not subjected to this time flow might have more freedom.

    Scientists observing a nova that occured millions of yrs ago, didn't force it to do that at the moment it occured. The star was totally free to nova when it was ready.

    And how can God move in time if he is outside it? It is just a sophistic game with words, having no real meaning whatsoever.
    God wouldn't move in time. He would remain outside of it, unless he wanted to change something. People watching a parade don't go into the parade, unless they want to interact. When they interact, the become subjected to the parade forces somewhat. If they want to get to another part of the parade, it's easier to get there by getting out of it, getting in their cars, driving ahead or back on a side road to another point in the parade. Again, this could apply to nongod entities.

    It's all about different dimensions. Different dimensions could intersect or exist separately from ours. Electromagnetism illustrates this nicely. Around us are all kinds of electromagnetic fields and signals. They are from sources such as the earth, the sun (many fields including light), the cosmos, cell phones, tv, radio am/fm, shortwave etc. Many of these don't interfere w each other, some do. With the right equipment, they can be measured. And so, while other dimensions don't concern us too much, they could exist.

    SS

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Bleep

    Most of us had swallowed that stuff in the past. We've barfed it out of our systems. We aren't likely to reswallow it. Didn't jesus say something about returning to vomit?

    SS

  • Valis
    Valis

    So Bleep's god is one who likes to play games. Why is this? If the outcome is predestined, then man has no free will. Unless free will is not a conditional state where you are set up to fail based on rules that are made only to prove a point, it either doesn't exist, or is a moot point.

    Because his universal sovereignty and his way of ruling had been brought into question.

    By whom? A being of equal stature, or one that had the ability to kill god? Well, this surely must be the case, for if it were not, god was simply playing a game of mental masturbation directed at inferior creatures. Sounds like bullshit to me.

    Some web resources for the topic of free will...

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

  • Bleep
    Bleep

    I found this most interesting. This might halp out with a more indepth discussion.
    Is Our Future Written in Advance?

    CHRISTIAN, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, or believer of another religion-people of all faiths experience tragedy and grieve over such.

    For example, on December 6, 1997, a terrible tragedy occurred in the Siberian city of Irkutsk. A huge AN-124 transport airplane had barely lifted off when two of its engines failed. The plane, fully fueled, plunged into a residential complex. Flames engulfed a number of apartment houses, bringing death and injury to scores of helpless occupants, including innocent children.

    In the area in Siberia where that accident took place, there are likely people with differing religious views. Some might express belief in Christianity, yet they could still think that the tragedy was a result of fate. They and others might feel, 'It was God's will, and if those who were killed did not die in this way, they would have died in another manner-it was their fate.'

    Such thinking, whether vocalized or not, reflects a concept that finds a place in many religions around the globe-fate. Many people believe that our future, from the day of our birth to the day of our death, is somehow written in advance.

    Belief in fate takes various forms, making an all-encompassing definition difficult. Fate basically conveys the idea that everything that happens, every act, every event-whether good or bad-is inevitable; it is destined to occur because it has been determined in advance by a higher force, beyond the control of man. Such a concept can be found in astrology, in Hinduism's and Buddhism's karma, as well as in Christendom's doctrine of predestination. Back in ancient Babylonia, men believed that the gods controlled fate and the future by means of a written document. Supposedly, any god who controlled these "tablets of destiny" could decide the fates of men, of kingdoms, and even of the gods themselves.

    Many believers hold that by divine decree before humans are born, God determines all that will happen to people, including the length of their life, whether they will be male or female, rich or poor, miserable or happy. All of this is said to exist in God's mind or to be written in a book before it comes to be. Thus it is not uncommon for a believer to say when calamity strikes, "mektoub,"-it is written! It is reasoned that since God knows everything beforehand, he must also determine who will obey him and who will disobey. Many adherents thus believe that even before a person is born, God has already determined whether he is destined for everlasting bliss in Paradise or he will receive everlasting doom.

    You may feel that this sounds very much like the doctrine of predestination taught in some churches of Christendom. The foremost Protestant proponent of predestination was the 16th-century French Reformer John Calvin. He defined predestination as "the eternal decree of God, by which he determined what he wanted to do with each man. Not all are created in the same condition, but eternal life is foreordained for some and eternal damnation for others." Calvin also asserted: "God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it."

    Yet, not all members of religions that teach predestination or fatalism believe it personally. Some rightly point out that the religious writings mention man's free will. In fact, there has been great controversy over human actions, whether they are the consequence of a free human choice or they are predetermined by God. Some, for example, have argued that man must be free to choose and act, since God, who is just, holds man responsible and accountable for his acts. Others have said that God creates the acts of man but that man somehow "acquires" them and becomes responsible for them. Generally speaking, however, many hold that every event, large and small, in our daily lives has been decreed by God.

    What do you believe? Has God already determined what your future will be? Do humans truly have free will, the ability to make real choices about their future? To what extent is our destiny contingent upon our own actions?

    Source from Watchtower Library

  • Bleep
    Bleep

    Saint says, "Most of us had swallowed that stuff in the past."

    Me - What parts did you try to swallow?

    Me says, "Because his universal sovereignty and his way of ruling had been brought into question."

    Me - Brought to question by Satan the devil. Gods right to rule.

    Valis says, "So Bleep's god is one who likes to play games."

    Me - He is the creator and knows what mankind needs.

    What did you mean by games? Any other word in the dictionary that can help you elaberate?

  • edster
    edster

    Has anyone seen Minority Report starring Tom Cruise? They had the ability to read people's minds and arrest potential criminals before they commited a crime. Its seems very real in the near future.

  • Valis
    Valis

    Seems to me that your god got into a pissing contest with an inferior creature, or so it would seem Satan was inferior, but maybe not. Could not your god have killed him long ago? Especially if your loving creator really knew what was good for us humans. In not getting rid on one particulalrly pesky angel, he sets mankind up for thousands of years of torment? Even Monopoly games don't last that long!

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

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