What is spirit, exactly? (page 5)

Jon Preston

I have yet to hear anything concrete or at least ausible as something that isnt metaphorical....and yet the Bible puts so much emphasis on this and Christians claim their "spirituality" is superior to ithers spirituality...well if you cant fully define, understand, measure, or somehow provide a clear idea about WHAT IT IS....how can you claim yours is superior to ANY other human being? Just because a book says so? There are so many books out there......think about it

Twitch

Going on first thoughts re the op

Were one to ask the same questions regarding character or personality, would one have answers?

Island Man

Viviane: If angels and demons and Satan and God are spirits and there is holy spirit and people have a spirit, what is this stuff made of. It has to be something. What is that something.

There is no one something that all things designated spirit are made of. The only commonality that things designated by the word spirit all share is invisibility to the human eye. A spirit person is totally different from the spirit (breath) of life that people have. What you don't seem to understand is that the word spirit does not designate a consistent, uniform material.

It's like you're asking:

" If the aurora borealis and ball lightning and sprites are are phenomena, what is phenomena made of. It has to be something. What is that something."

Vidqun

Here’s an edited discussion of “spirit” from two reputable dictionaries, discussing the Biblical meaning of the word, for those that are interested. From this one can see how Biblical and clergy use would have influenced the modern use of the word. As already mentioned, it has more than one meaning.

RUAHH (according to HALOT).

Statistics: ruahh 387 times; not attested in Lv, Ob, Nah, Ruth, Song, Est; Ezk 52 times, Is 51 times, Ps 39 times, Jb 31 times, see further THAT 2:727; in Sept. (see TWNT 6:366): πνεῦμα 277 times, ἄνεμος 52 times, θυμός 6 times, πνοή 4 times, ψυχή twice, νοῦς once, φρόνησις once, for further citations see KBL and TWNT loc. cit.; signifies air in motion, a blowing, breeze, wind, nothingness, spirit, sense. Generally is fem.; only seldom is it masc., not able to find a reason for this shift in gender.

—1. breath.

—2. breeze.

—3. wind (THAT 2:728-730), over 100 times.

—4. wind, meaning one of the sides of the world.

—5. wind and God ) THAT 2:731-733 ( .

—6. breath which supports life.

—a. among animals Gn 6:17 ; 7:15 .

—b. among people (also meaning spirit).

—7. ) not always distinguished from 6 with certainty) meaning the natural spirit of humanity, as sense, mind, intellectual frame of mind (THAT 2:738-742): the following meanings (a-e) easily merge with one another:

—a. spirit: Ezk 1:15 : 13:3; 20:32; Mal 2:15 , 16 ; Ps 3:22 ) see above, 6 b ii ( , a spirit outside my experience ) NRSV; REB: a spirit beyond my understanding) Jb 20:3 .

—b. mind: Is 57:16 ) for prp., BHK ( , Ezk 13:3 ; Pr 29:11 ; Qoh 7:9 ; 1C 28:12; Ps 51:12 .

—c. temperament: cj. 2 S 13:39 ) textual corruption ( , prp. ) cf. Sept.) cf. NRSV: the heart of the king went out; REB similarly; 1K 215, or under e;

—d. frame of mind: Nu 14:24 ; Dt 2:30 ; Ps 3:22 :: Wolff Anthropologie 66: intention;

—e. courage: Jos 2:11 ; 5:1 ; 1K 2:15 ; Pr 18:14 .

—f. ill temper: Qoh 10:4 , rage, wrath Ju 8:3, Is 25:4 ; 33:11 , cf. spirit of envy Nu 514.30 ) see below, h ( ;

—g. Pr 16:32 : the exact rendering is uncertain, possibilities include:

—i. who masters himself (KBL; cf. ZürBib.).

—ii. he who rules his temper (Gemser Spr.2 72; REB: control one’s temper);

—iii. who masters his wrath, thus with Sept. ἰ δὲ κρατῶν ὀργῆς; NRSV: one whose temper is controlled.

—h. the intellectual frame of mind, in certain connections:

—8. the spirit of Yahweh (THAT 2:742-746).

—9. spirit of God.

—a. the spirit of God (so NRSV margin, REB) hovered.

—b. a (the) mighty wind (so NRSV margin) blew.

—c. a (the) divine wind (meaning a divine storm); cf. NRSV: a wind from God blew, but this interpretation is not strictly separable from the previous one (b); see further see W.H. Schmidt, Die Schöpfungsgeschichte der Priesterschrift 81-84 (with bibliography); U. Westermann BK 1/1:147-149; on the first suggestion (a) see esp. O.H. Steck, Der Schöpfungsbericht der Priesterschrift , 233-238: the breath of God was moving.

—10. a holy spirit:

—a. Is 63:10f .

—b. Ps 51:13 ; cf. Caquot RHR 169 ) 1966 ( 147: no hypostasis, but rather the power of prophetic inspiration in Is, and in Ps the power of giving life, the spirit (wind) of life.

—11. ) the ( spirit of God: Nu 1117.25f, Ezk 22 324; the spirit as an autonomous entity over and against God 1K 2221 2C 1820; as a moving spirit Ezk 112.20; the spirit of living things Ezk 120f 1017 (sg. collective, see Zimmerli Ezechiel 7 ( .

—12. transferring the spirit from one person to another (THAT 2:743-746):

—a. Yahweh will take from the spirit that is on Moses and set it upon the seventy elders Nu 11:17 ; this pronouncement is carried out in v. 25f, cf. 29; Moses transfers the on to Joshua Dt 349; ) Joshua ( Nu 27:18; the spirit of Elijah is transferred to Elisha 2 K 2:9 .

—b. see also above, 8 e. God gives spirit

—c. he exhorted them by his spirit: Neh 9:30 ; led upward ) by the spirit of Yahweh ( Ezk 37:1 ; Yahweh put a spirit into the king of Assyria , and he will hear a rumour, 2 K 19:7 ; Is 37:7 .

—13. particular types of spirit: the spirit of wisdom as the spirit of skilled workmanship, Ex 28:3 ; spirit of wisdom, Is 1:12 , divine spirit that manifests itself in wisdom ) skilful craft ? ( and insight, a spirit of cleansing, Is 4:4 ; Is 11:2 ; as a gift of wisdom Pr 1:23 ; the spirit of a destroyer Jr 5:11 ; Zech 12:10 , the spirit of grace and of gracious supplication, the spirit of ) cultic ( impurity Zech 13:2 .

—14. Is 3:13 , see THAT 2:747f.

—15. cj.:

—a. Is 38:16 text uncertain, for “give rest to my spirit; you have refreshed my spirit; my spirit is not destroyed.

—b. Jr 52:23 unexplained, see Rudolph Jer.3 322;

—c. Mal 215 text uncertain, literally, and no one does thus, and retains even a part of his life, thus Horst HAT 142 (1954) 268; or, and no one does something like this, if he possesses even a remnant of his understanding, thus Schreiner ZAW 91 (1979) 216f.

PNEUMA (according to BDAG).

1. air in movement, blowing, breathing (even the glowing exhalations of a volcanic crater: Diod. S. 5, 7, 3).

a. wind

b. the breathing out of air, blowing, breath

2. that which animates or gives life to the body, breath, (life-)spirit

3. a part of human personality, spirit

4. an independent noncorporeal being, in contrast to a being that can be perceived by the physical senses, spirit (ELangton, Good and Evil Spirits ’42).

a. God personally:

b. good, or at least not expressly evil spirits or spirit-beings

c. evil spirits

5. God’s being as controlling influence, with focus on association with humans, Spirit, spirit as that which differentiates God fr. everything that is not God, as the divine power that produces all divine existence, as the divine element in which all divine life is carried on, as the bearer of every application of the divine will. All those who belong to God possess or receive this spirit and hence have a share in God’s life. This spirit also serves to distinguish Christians fr. all unbelievers (cp. PGM 4, 1121ff, where the spirit is greeted as one who enters devotees and, in accordance w. God’s will, separates them fr. themselves, i.e. fr. the purely human part of their nature); for this latter aspect s. esp. 6 below.

a. the Spirit of God, of the Lord (=God) etc.

b. the Spirit of Christ, of the Lord (=Christ) etc.

c. Because of its heavenly origin and nature this Spirit is called (the) Holy Spirit (cp. PGM 4, 510 ἵνα πνεύσῃ ἐν ἐμοὶ τὸ ἱερὸν πνεῦμα.—Neither Philo nor Josephus called the Spirit πν. ἅγιον; the former used θεῖον or θεοῦ πν., the latter πν. θεῖον: Ant. 4, 118; 8, 408; 10, 239; but ἅγιον πνεῦμα Orig. C. Cels 1, 40, 16).

d. abs.

e. The Spirit is more closely defined by a gen. of thing: τὸ πν. τῆς ἀληθείας (TestJud 20:5) J 14:17; 15:26; 16:13 (in these three places the Spirit of Truth is the Paraclete promised by Jesus upon his departure).

f. Of Christ ‘it is written’ in Scripture: (ἐγένετο) ὁ ἔσχατος Ἀδὰμ εἰς πνεῦμα ζῳοποιοῦν 1 Cor 15:45 . The scripture pass. upon which the first part of this verse is based is Gen 2:7 , where Wsd 15:11 also substitutes the words πνεῦμα ζωτικόν for πνοὴν ζωῆς (cp. Just., D. 6, 2). On the other hand, s. Philo, Leg. All. 1, 42 and s. the lit. s.v. Ἀδάμ ad loc.

g. The (divine) Pneuma stands in contrast to everything that characterizes this age or the finite world gener.: οὐ τὸ πν. τοῦ κόσμου ἀλλὰ τὸ πν. τὸ ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ 1 Cor 2:12 ; cp. Eph 2:2 and 1 Ti 4:1ab .

α. in contrast to σάρξ, which is more closely connected w. sin than any other earthly material (Just., D. 135, 6): J 3:6; Ro 8:4-6 , 9a , 13 ; Gal 3:3 ; 5:17ab ; 6:8 . Cp. B 10:9. πᾶσα ἐπιθυμία κατὰ τοῦ πνεύματος στρατεύεται Pol 5:3.

β. in contrast to σῶμα (=σάρξ) Ro 8:10 and to σάρξ (=σῶμα, as many hold) J 6:63a (for τὸ πν. ἐστιν τὸ ζῳοποιοῦν cp. Philo, Op. Mund. 30; Herm. Wr. in Cyrill., C. Jul. I 556c=542, 24 Sc. the pneuma τὰ πάντα ζῳοποιεῖ καὶ τρέφει. S. also f above). Cp. Ro 8:11b .

γ. in contrast to γράμμα, which is the characteristic quality of God’s older declaration of the divine will in the law: Ro 2:29 ; 7:6 ; 2 Cor 3:6ab , 8 (cp. vs. 7).

δ. in contrast to the wisdom of humans 1 Cor 2:13 .

6. the Spirit of God as exhibited in the character or activity of God’s people or selected agents, Spirit, spirit (s. HPreisker, Geist u. Leben ’33).

7. an activating spirit that is not fr. God, spirit: πν. ἔτερον a different (kind of) spirit 2 Cor 11:4 . Cp. 2 Th 2:2 ; 1J 4:1-3 . Because there are persons activated by such spirits, it is necessary to test the var. kinds of spirits (the same problem Artem. 3, 20 περὶ διαφορᾶς μάντεων, οἷς δεῖ προσέχειν καὶ οἷς μή) 1 Cor 12:10 ; 1J 4:1b . ὁ διάβολος πληροῖ αὐτὸν αὐτοῦ πν. Hm 11:3. Also οὐκ οἴδατε ποίου πνεύματός ἐστε Lk 9:55 v .l. distinguishes betw. the spirit shown by Jesus’ disciples, and another kind of spirit.—Even more rarely a spirit divinely given that is not God’s own; so (in a quot. fr. Is 29:10 ) a πνεῦμα κατανύξεως Ro 11:8 .

8. an independent transcendent personality, the Spirit, Syn. II 218-50. New Docs 4, 38f. DELG s.v. πνέω. M-M. Dict. de la Bible XI 126-398. EDNT. TW. Sv.

Personal conclusion: From the above one can conclude that “spirit” refers to: 1) the energy involved, keeping the organism alive (where breathing plays an important part). The Bible refers to a living soul and a dead soul, the latter lacking “spirit.” 2) It can also refer to motivational energy of a person, whether internal or external, whether good or bad. 3) It can refer to an inanimate force, e.g., breeze, wind. 3) It can also refer to independent creatures, e.g., God, angels and demons.

talesin

edited by me

Nothing to see here, move along.

tal

* Jedi Class

cofty

Island man - It is a reasonable question, you are obfuscating.

Christians assert that humans have a "spirit" that suvives death. They claim that god is a "spirit".

What is this stuff of which you speak?

talesin

" If the aurora borealis and ball lightning and sprites are are phenomena, what is phenomena made of. It has to be something. What is that something."

Here is the problem I have with this ...... apples and oranges. The Aurora Borealis and ball lightning are natural phenomena, proven to exist and explained by known science. Sprites? They are part of folk lore and ancient religions, but are NOT a natural phenomenon. They are neither proven to exist nor explained by science.

I will not say you are deliberately obfuscating (as I cannot read your mind, so it would be unfair to call you a liar), but this comment is not comprehensive - we know the 'something' of the first 2 examples you give - the third 'doesn't belong in the picture'.

Do you wish to clarify?

tal

Viviane

It's like you're asking:

" If the aurora borealis and ball lightning and sprites are are phenomena, what is phenomena made of. It has to be something. What is that something."

It's not like that at all. You're still missing the point. People are asserting something exists and haven't the faintest clue what it is.

Besides, I can tell you what both of those events are comprised of. Unless someone can tell me what spirit is, it's not even remotely the same.

From this one can see how Biblical and clergy use would have influenced the modern use of the word. As already mentioned, it has more than one meaning.

If God and Satan and angels and demons are spirit stuff, what is that stuff? So far all answers point to either metaphor or "heck if I know"

TheWonderofYou

It was always my hope to that the spirit of God opens the hearts of people, when I was in the field services. Why should it not be so in reality. To believe in a divine spirit without allowing him to do this would be not logical.

1.The spirit is unlimited and thus the christian church has to be unlimited, open for all.

2. God does not hold back his spirit for those who do not know Jesus Christ or the Bible, as the bible shows God is working in each human being and in all religions.

3. At the moment of accepting Jesus, by entering into the church community, you come into a closer relationship than all other people have with the spirit.
To the church Jesus has a special relationship. All christians form one "body"like entity, each member is a "limb" of that body. Thus from this time onwards the spirit makes you the gift of a new life.

4. Jesus said that you than become beloved by him like a bride is loved by the bridgegroom. But like in a marriage you must allows try to speak with each other and intensify that intimate love.

5. Holy spirit is asssiting us on our way of faith. We will only feel and understand the spirit, the new life, if we begin to walk on this way, cause faith and love you can only experience by doing not by thinking about, its a matter of heart, a loving type of spirituality of walking hand in hand, a marriage.

6 But all other human on earth which are not in the marriage between Christ and Church are blessed by the benefits of the church. The whole creation
is waiting for the revelation of the sons of god. These sons of god are those who lead a spirit-full life and thus are a blessing for others.

Greetings.

TWOY

Viviane

It was always my hope to that the spirit of God opens the hearts of people

So what is this spirit? How does it work, specifically? Do you mean their physical heart or something else? If something else, what do you mean?

Once I really understand what you mean by that, we can move the discussion forward.

Thanks!

What is spirit, exactly?

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