Theism Makes Science Impossible

by cofty 71 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    I think it is true that the idea that God can be active in the world is contradictory to cause and effect, or rather the methodological nature of how science is done, which assumes that all physical things are part of a connective whole and therefor have a relationship in various ways to itself, directly or indirectly. If God acts in the world, this relationship would be disrupted from the normal ways that nature is known to operate, science is contradicted in essence.

    However more can be said than just this because there already are places in the universe that are known to not operate in the normal ways nature is known to. Black holes demonstrate this quite well, as does the contradiction of classical physics with quantum mechanics, according to at least the main interpretation of quantum mechanics, which is the Copenhagen interpretation as it is called. All this shows that even what is thought to be known as scientific fact is not entirely known. This means that not all natural circumstances are taken into consideration when a fact about nature is stated as unarguable fact. There is uncertainty at the extreme level of things which causes valid questions about how certain natural causal relationships really are and why and even the definition of nature itself!

    For instance, if all is just cause and effect then predictability should be no problem at all. In many cases in science, this is the case, which demonstrates that cause and effect is indeed a real thing. Even here however uncertainly increases the more extreme the natural forces get which decreases predictability and therefor the view that know facts really are as certain as they are assumed to be. However an issue also arises of the exact starting point of any example of cause and effect because without this knowledge predictability is not completely accurate anyway. Then there is also the ultimate starting point issue. Did something come from nothing or has something always been infinity, and if no time before the universe or multiverse, how then does cause and effect happen anyway and so on and so forth?

    If there are places in the universe where known physics breaks down, goes against common sense, or relates to philosophical questions of metaphysics and knowledge itself, or what is thought to be known about scientific fact is not quite a certain as we like, then the idea of a God working in the universe might not contradict scientific naturalism even though it appears that it must.

    Our own ability to choose and make choices as well as effect the world around us accordingly, is perhaps the most personally obvious example of the issues raised here. The age old `hard problem of consciousness` rears its ugly head. If all things are simply cause and effect, then free will, choice and consciousness really don’t exist at all because the brain is just a physical object subject to cause and effect, no matter how complex it is and the processes it is subject to. Personal experience, if it is indeed real, challenges this notion!

    The scientific method, which being a methodology is itself a process and therefore subject to cause and effect is predicated on what it attempts to study being also subject to cause and effect because if it isn’t, then predictably of a theory goes out of the preverbal window. As we all know, a theory can’t really be called science unless it predicts to at least some extent of accuracy. The very idea of personal choice and free will contradicts the notion of predictability. If an illusion then who or what is being fooled?

    Most people would accept their own freewill even if it has limits, however they would also accept the validity of science based on causes leading to effects, and the relationships science studies to allow this process to occur. The very fact that predictability does exist in many areas of science also affirms the validity of cause and effect and of course science. This however is a contradictory position to having free will. If it is true that people do have choice and effect the world around us as a result, then God being able to do likewise could well be the same issue irrespective of God not being physical because apparently physical things only work according to cause and effect and don’t permit our own freedom of will.

    Perhaps there is another way to look at it because if science and God acting in the world are mutually exclusive ideas, then so is science and human free will, and our ability to affect through freedom of choice. Are we prepared to throw out the one thing that allows for rationality to be understood, which is our own consciousness, in order to protect the idea that cause and effect and the study thereof are the universal and only epitome of rationality? It seems to me that something deeper is going on in reality that allows for real choice to be real and also the simple idea of cause and effect. Science may not be up to this study because of the way it is currently defined. Don’t get me wrong, it is good that it is defined the way it is because otherwise it would be a lot less effective which is why God should be left out of the doing of science. However its advantage may be a disadvantage in other areas of reality. This may mean that the universe works according to more than one paradigm at the same time.

  • humbled
    humbled

    Being a sloppy theist may be how to avoid being delusional. I think that may even be true of scientists.

  • galaxie
    galaxie

    I have posted on another topic thus: That the limit of our brain(understanding to a correct conclusion).Could be god for some, big bang, black hole, anti matter for others.

    The physical makeup of our brain determines how clever we can be. No matter which person calls upon it for understanding. I personally concede that there may be things we are actually unable to understand because of the physical make up of our brains.

    However scientific conclusions are based on proof, if that proof is seen to be unsound, science has no issue with further research to reach a correct result.

    Whereas theists / deists will believe without proof or question.

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    It's not appropriate to berate intelligent people and call the dellusional just because they believe in God. It is misusing the word, especially as to how and itelligent human practices their faith.

    They are not dellusional if the don't push their religion on others. If people rely on God for medical help instead of medicine that is dangerous, but praying for a cancer patient whilst encouraging them to follow their doctors advice and stick to their madication is appropriate.

    Kate xx

  • galaxie
    galaxie

    Kate .I did not invent or define the word:..delusion , I am using it in terms of its definition and applying that to my own reasoning.

    I do not intend to berate people , that again would be down to THEIR perception and take on what I mean.

    I feel however you may be scolding (berating) me, now now then!!

    It is not my intention to scold anyone, they are all entitled to their own beliefs, as others through this forum are entitlement to give an opinion.

    Sorry for any offence.

    Best wishes to you.

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    Hi galaxie. I hope I don’t come over as being pedantic but it is an important point to my mind in that science doesn’t deal in proofs when it comes to its conclusions. Technically is it only mathematics that deals with proofs. Science deals with best theories. Best in this context is defined by a variety of considerations like parsimony and other things like its ability to predict and so on. There have been times when new and better theories replaced those at one point accepted as `fact`. Often the older theory wasn’t false exactly, in so much as it wasn’t as accurate as the newer one in making predictions ect. In science all it takes is one example of the theory failing and the theory is proved false. However existing theories often fail when subjected to different or stronger circumstances in nature, which shows they are incomplete in explaining the whole show. This means there is always the potential for a new and more inclusive theory to supplant any existing one as long as there are unknowns in nature. Hence we go from hypothesis to theory, if its accepted but never to proof. There is another issue however concerning the fact that the more inclusive a theory is, the more complex it must be, which is a potential issue for parsimony. I won’t go into that one though.

  • galaxie
    galaxie

    Hi seraph. Would you agree that science has came to a conclusion about any study or theory using proof.?

    If so then you are being with respect pedantic.

    Absolutely mathematics can provide proof for mathematical based problems who could disagree?

    As far as theoretical study to either confirm or refute ,as I said science is always willing reject former conclusions if proved to be false, unfounded, incorrect. Whereas theists deists can believe with neither proof or question .

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    I do not intend to berate people , that again would be down to THEIR perception and take on what I mean.-galaxie

    Me niether, best wishes to you too. Kate xx

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    Galaxie mathematical theories are not scientific theories unless they are backed up by observation of some sort. I just think it important to realise that science is always provisional and so proof is not an appropriate word to use if one is talking about what science is. To say it is proven may be to do what theists are being accused of, which is the stopping on enquiry on the basis that we already know the real why.

    Although true that the facet of belief can allow people to believe anything they want, irrespective of being a theist or not, this doesn’t mean that what science has established as a good theory is not also predicated on the unprovable believe that truth untimely exists. Science is predicated on this belief of truth but in order to prove it is a true belief one needs to prove it. The only way to do this would be to get all knowledge that exists in a universal theory of everything but how will one ever know that one has all knowledge? I believe this is not possible and so ultimately even science is based on an unprovable belief system of sorts even though it works to a degree.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Perhaps the title of your thread should have been, " I believe theism contributes to difficulties when following the scientific method, especially in theists who make a conscious decision to stop searching for scientific reasons for phenomena within the natural world, as if saying anything more than, "God did it.", would piss God off."

    Although not as catchy as your title, it's more accurate since theism has NOT made science impossible at all. Science has existed since the first human asked, "why?", and it will continue to exist. Theism is not an automatic enemy of thought or of science. The ability of humans to imagine more than what can be seen, and more that what just seems "logical" is at the heart of some our greatest scientific achievements.

    I would say that closed-minded religious extremists who believe in a vengeful God that mirrors their own personalities, make science difficult at times. I wouldn't say impossible. Impossible is a big "absolute" word that get's proven wrong quite often, usually right after it's used.

    DD

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