Theism Makes Science Impossible

by cofty 71 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty
    cofty

    It is not impossible to be a great scientist and a theist - Kenneth Miller and Francis Collins are good examples.

    However, science depends on methodological naturalism - a working assumption that there are natural causes for observed effects. Please note that methodological naturalism is not the same as ontological naturalism. In other words scientists may believe in a spirit world or not as long as god is never invoked as an answer.

    Contrast this with theism which, unlike deism, declares god to be immanent and active in the world.

    Consider a scientist who is also a theist doing research into the efficacy of a new drug that cures heart disease. Monday to Friday he supervises a double-blind trial to test the drug on a large sample of patients. At church on Sunday he participates in prayers for church members who are sick. One elderly lady in church has heart disease and is part of the drug trial.

    Now when he collates the results of the trial how does he factor-in the answers to prayers?

    This is just one hypothetical example that demonstrates that science and theism are incompatible and can only be reconciled by a kind of benevolent hypocrisy.

  • prologos
    prologos

    I am just now reading F. Collins "The Language of God" and your giving credit to his views is right.

    A researcher could of course show bias in his interpretation of data, but for lasting credit, any scewing would not serve him/her well in the inevitable peer "re- view"

    Are there any scientists that really expect "the hand of God " to be shown in their work? for Deists it is enough to see how well everthing works. The better that happens, the more convinced of their stance they should be.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Such people existed for centuries.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Yes but they they could only do science by separating their theism from science.

    When Newton got stuck on why all the planets travel on the same plane he abandoned science and ascribed the answer to god.

    You can't do science without temporarily putting your belief in theism aside. Please see my OP for an example of what I mean.

  • humbled
    humbled

    150 years ago a slave child was born who became an agricultural chemist whose work was world renown. George Washington Carver was a non-denominational theist who was ridiculed even years ago for saying that he talked to God about his work.

    Asked why he even looked for the hundreds of uses for the lowly peanut, Carver said he had once asked God to tell him the "mystery of the universe" and god said "that is for me alone". Carver then claimed to ask god to reveal to him"the mystery of the peanut"; a question more his size. Essentially asking"why did God make the peanut?"

    Carver said such an approach opened his mind. He invented hundreds of uses for the peanut, the sweet potato, soybeans. and in so doing saved the U.S. southern farmers whose crops wear being destroyed by a growing plague of boll weevils.

    His was a very open theism. And he avoided becoming a member of a church.

    His is a truly really remarkable story.

  • prologos
    prologos

    there may not be hypocricy involved in doing science and being a Deist/Theist.

    doing real research/ organizing data to form theories, is dealing with nature, and no leigh of hand by the supernatural is involved, although Newton wondered wether God would not need to nudge his clock work solar system to keep it working so long.

    The conviction that the universe is a set-up, not a total random event helped searchers in the past to do good work and many were not ashamed to say so.

    Nowodays it might make doing science impossible, because it has become fashionable to never mention the big question, when your funding depends on compliance to the "no deist allowed" concensus.

  • RottenRiley
    RottenRiley

    Methodological naturalism: If that’s the way forward, … let’s go sideways

    November 20, 2008 Posted by O'Leary under Intelligent Design 105 Comments

    Having connected the dots of the vast conspiracy run by the Discovery Institute so as to include non-materialist neuroscience, Steven Novella goes on tocheerlead, for methodological naturalism – about which I will say only this:

    Methodological naturalism is usually described as meaning that science can consider only natural causes. But by itself that doesn’t mean anything because we don’t know everything that is in nature. For example, if – as Rupert Sheldrakethinks – some animals can demonstrate telepathy, then telepathy is a natural cause. And so?

    And so Richard Dawkins goes to a great deal of trouble to attempt to discreditSheldrake because the hidden assumption is that nature mustn’t include telepathy.

    In practice, methodological naturalism frequently becomes a method of defending bad – and often ridiculously bad.- ideas in order to save naturalism. Think of the persistent efforts to “prove” that humans don’t “really” behave altruistically. In fact, we sometimes do. Here’s a recent story, for example, about a Texas woman named Marilyn Mock who went to an auction of foreclosed homes, ran into Tracey Orr – an unemployed woman she had never met – who had come to endure the sale of her home, and …

    Orr couldn’t hold it in. The tears flowed. She pointed to the auction brochure at a home that didn’t have a picture. “That’s my house,” she said.

    Within moments, the four-bedroom, two-bath home in Pottsboro, Texas, went up for sale. People up front began casting their bids. The home that Orr purchased in September 2004 was slipping away.

    She stood and moved toward the crowd. Behind her, Mock got into the action.

    “She didn’t know I was doing it,” Mock says. “I just kept asking her if [her home] was worth it, and she just kept crying. She probably thought I was crazy, ‘Why does this woman keep asking me that?’ “

    Mock says she bought the home for about $30,000. That’s when Mock did what most bidders at a foreclosure auction never do.

    “She said, ‘I did this for you. I’m doing this for you,’ ” Orr says. “When it was all done, I was just in shock.”

    But it was true. Mock bought the house for her and said she would accept as repayment only what Orr can afford. Why?

    “If it was you, you’d want somebody to stop and help you.”

    Now, a “methodological naturalist” would

    (1) try to find a chimpanzee who does something similar and make up a story that explains how that behaviour was naturally selected for in primates

    or (since that might take a while)

    (2) assign a selfish motive for Mock that is consistent with survival of the fittest.

    One might at first be tempted to conclude that methodological naturalism is methodological idiocy. But no, let’s look a bit more carefully. Notice what is not a permitted assumption: We can’t assume that some people just think they should help others – even at considerable cost. In other words, the plain evidence of human behavior cannot be accepted at face value.

    Now, there is nothing especially scientific about that belief. “Scientific” means “dealing with the evidence from nature,” which includes a fair sprinkling of unselfish or not-very-selfish humans (as well as of the other type). Indeed, superior human intelligence probably explains the tendency to imagine another’s feelings (= “If it was you, you’d want somebody to stop and help you”). So we can account scientifically for why humans can behave as Mock did.

    The problem is that such an account, while useful, fails to support a key false belief underlying methodological naturalism: That humans are really the 98% chimpanzee and cannot in principle have motives absent in chimpanzees. Apart from that false belief, no one would bother trying to find an exotic explanation for Mock’s behaviour.

    The principle role that methodological naturalism plays right now is to enable false beliefs to pose as science and to prevent them being discredited by evidence.

    By the way, speaking of generosity, thanks much to the person who recently sent a bit of money our way via the PayPal button. It is the only way we can maintain independent news desks in the intelligent design controversy. If you prefer what you read here to what you could read in United International Barf News, hey … thanks for reading and thanks for thinking of us when you have a bit of spare money.

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/methodological-naturalism-if-thats-the-way-forward-lets-go-sideways/

  • RottenRiley
    RottenRiley

    I needed more information on Francis Collins and Miller to decide if they are qualified to comment on topics often turned in to anger matches. Why can professinals have dialogue with name calling and ad-hominen attacks? Not all debates go smooth but they never turn out to be a dead end discussion like they do on JWN? Most don't take the bait any longer because of the futile and unproductive discussions and many threads are left answered, not because the Member does not wish to engage, they get sick of the anger and self-assured victory when the questions were never answered.

    http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/

    Dr. Francis Collins

    Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D., is a physician-geneticist and the Director of the National Human Genome Research Institute, NIH. In that role he oversees a fifteen year project aimed at mapping and sequencing all of the human DNA by the year 2005. Many consider this the most important scientific undertaking of our time. The project is currently running ahead of schedule and under budget.

    Collins was raised on a small farm in Virginia and home-schooled until the sixth grade. He obtained his undergraduate degree in chemistry at the University of Virginia, and went on to obtain a Ph.D. in physical chemistry at Yale University. Recognizing that a revolution was beginning in molecular biology and genetics, he changed fields and enrolled in medical school at the University of North Carolina, where he encountered the field of medical genetics and knew he had found his dream. After a residency and chief residency in internal medicine in Chapel Hill, he returned to Yale for a fellowship in human genetics, where he worked on methods of crossing large stretches of DNA to identify disease genes. He continued to develop these ideas after joining the faculty at the University of Michigan in 1984. This approach, for which he later coined the term positional cloning, has developed into a powerful component of modern molecular genetics, as it allows the identification of disease genes for almost any condition, without knowing ahead of time what the functional abnormality might be.

    Together with Lap-Chee Tsui and Jack Riordan of the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto, Canada, his research team identified the gene for cystic fibrosis using this strategy in 1989. That was followed by his group's identification of the neurofibromatosis gene in 1990, and a successful collaborative effort to identify the gene for Huntington disease in 1993. That same year, Collins accepted an invitation to become the second director of the National Center for Human Genome Research, following in the footsteps of James Watson. In that role, Collins has overseen the successful completion of several of the Genome Project's goals, and now the full ramp-up of the sequencing component is underway.

    In addition, Collins founded a new NIH intramural research program in genome research, which has now grown to become one of the premier research units in human genetics in the country. His own research laboratory continues to be vigorously active, exploring the molecular genetics of breast cancer, prostate cancer, adult-onset diabetes, and other disorders. His accomplishments have been recognized by election to the Institute of Medicine and the National Academy of Sciences, and numerous national and international awards.

  • abiather
    abiather

    Actually, God has no part in the world-affairs, because he has everything to the automatic mechanism called Law of Cause and Effect, which is omnipresent, impartial, immutable, inexorable and impeccable!

    Because man is endowed the knowledge, will-power, and ability, and has an ocean of experience to correct/fine-tune his future actions.

    Yet people blame God for being inactive or think he is non-existent! If humans simply avoid all the wastages, everyone on earth can live like kings in palaces!!!

  • aquafrenta
    aquafrenta

    reality flies in the face of hypotheticals

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_scientists

    all theists

    included in the list.....

    Mendel

    Pasteur

    Marconi

    Lamarck (call him a hypocrite?)

    Ockham (go figure)

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