Oh wait, I just came up with a good answer: Hey! Anybody wanna come be stupid with me?
Hee hee
Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe 139 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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friendaroonie
c.f. and I love how in that video its just some dudes talking in front of pictures of ancient jerusalem and egypt. I can just imagine all the mormons all kmpressed nodding their heads in unison sand saying aaaahhh. Mmmm so true. Arent we lucky to be living in a time when we are led by such a wise and fai th hful brothers to help expound on the trouth!
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Cold Steel
Frienderoonie: I really hate that this post is still up top when I clicked on active topics just now. What bugs me is how random it is. Hey did you ever want to take up gladiator reinactments? Did you ever want to take a popcicle stick, break it in two and shove the splintery end up your anus? Did you ever want to take the top to a plastic jug of milk, fill it with a teaspoon of salt water, take it over to the sink and dump it out and then put it back on the jug of milk without washing the small residue of salt that remains on it?
What flavor was the popcicle?
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rawe
Hi Cold Steel,
"I joined this site because my family got dropped like hot potatoes after a branch of our family joined the Jehovah's Witnesses."
Do they remain Witnesses? This thread confirms what I believe is generally true. That is, few Ex-JWs become LDS members. And likewise few LDS members become Witnesses. However, it does happen. In both cases, it is a warm thought if your faith is the one that has gained the member. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "dropped like hot potatoes", but it sounds like other LDS members were wishing to blame your family for this change? In any regards, if one is involved in a life-defining faith, it can create shockwaves in a family when you leave. Unfortunately for the Witnesses, this often is translated into life-long shunning towards those who leave.
"My grandmother was terrorized by JW literature that spoke of people ceasing to exist at death. The thought of her going into the ground and fading to nothingness was repugnant to her (as it would me)."
Witnesses are fond of quoting Ezekiel 18:4 to show the soul is not immortal and can die and Ecceliastes 9:5 that the dead are unconscious. Annihilation at death is one thing the Witnesses have been consistent about, since their start as International Bible Students. It seems to have stemmed from a general dislike of the hell-fire doctrine by Charles Russell (founder of the Bible Students). In reality it is obvious that death ends animated life. Most religious thought through the ages seeks to solve this obvious fate in one way or another. For Witnesses the solution was restoration of life via ressurection.
"Once I'm dead, however, if I do become non-existent, I don't want to be resurrected."
Of course if you were non-existent, you wouldn't know ;-)
"Part of the LDS faith that appeals to me is that it is predicated on the principle that God is of such a nature that he would never put someone into the horrible situations that exist on the earth -- situations in which the rate of failure were remarkably high -- without first gaining the consent of the person being born into mortality."
Religious ideas often seek to find purpose in life, find ultimate justice and the like. "Blow a horn in Zion, O men, and shout a war cry in my holy mountain. Let all the inhabitants of the land get agitated; for the day of Jehovah is coming, for it is near!" (Joel 2:1). Language like this is common in much of the OT. When we see injustice, we want to see it dealt with. Since so many times it is not, we imagine an ultimate fix, a "day of the Lord". And of course, the greatest affront to us all, is no matter what we do, we will die. Nothing saves us from that.
"Because of our premortality, we had the choice of being born and consented to it having a fairly good idea of what we were getting in to. And succeed or fail, it was our decision. All part of free will. We had much to lose, but we also stood a lot to gain."
Pre-existence is an interesting LDS idea, that no doubt is used to make logical sense of the otherwise indifference the universe shows towards life. When a child is born into poverty and dies before the age of 5, it reeks of injustice. How can this be solved? Maybe we can imagine a poor choice made in the pre-existence. Or for Witnesses, we can reason this is "Satan's system" subject to "futility" (Romans 8:20) due to Adam and Eve's bad use of free will. Alas, the biological reasons for premature death in humans is often no different than what happens to dogs or cats, who, we would imagine, are not subject to choice and free will.
The idea of our life being a test of sorts is not unique to the LDS. The OT story of Job is of this sort. Thinking in terms of a brain evolved towards finding purpose helps make sense of why such ideas appeal to us.
"I don't trust religions run by men who aren't called and ordained by God."
Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are ordained ministers.
"No church was formed, and there weren't any biblical offices such as bishops, priests, deacons, teachers, apostles and others."
The terms "ministerial servant" and "elder" are drawn from NT Greek. Jehovah's Wtinesses sincerely believe they are following 1st century Biblical patterns in how they are organized. Even how local congregations are named, such as the naming of "Union Hills" in Phoenix, where I was an elder, reflect upon patterns of congregation naming in Revelation and Paul's NT writings.
"If no church, then no officers; if no officers, no authority; if no authority, then no revelation; and if no revelation, then no church."
This is probably more a case of semantics. Witnesses stemmed from "sincere Bible students" who have never claimed modern inspiration the likes of OT and NT Bible writers. Nonetheless, despite such seeming deference, the leaders believe they are directed by Jehovah's Holy Spirit and are his chosen channel of communication on earth today.
"Thus, while we have general authorities very much like the JW Governing Board, the difference isn't in the suits, the ages of the men, the types of offices they work in, but there is a difference in what they say and do, and the authority by which they do it."
Agreed. There are both similarities and differences. Believing Witnesses would likely say "how dare they..." in regards to the claims of made by the LDS leaders, "see, our leaders are much more humble" the would claim. Pragmatically, though, it works out to be about the same.
Cheers,
-Randy
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barry
Cold Steele, Have any artifacts been found mentioned in the book of mormon that are found in the Americas? Things like arrow heads, coins or art works? Have any of the numerous cities been found also mentioned in the book of mormon ? The flora and fauna in th ebook of mormon is also false isn't it.
The mormons are allowed to go to other churches as claimed recently some mormon missionarys visited St Matthews here in Canberra in trying to convert some Anglicans to their church
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Cold Steel
Randy: [Did] they remain Witnesses? This thread confirms...[that] few Ex-JWs become LDS members. And likewise few LDS members become Witnesses. ... I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "dropped like hot potatoes," but it sounds like other LDS members were wishing to blame your family for this change?
Nope. They dropped the whole family. You’re also correct that Jehovah’s Witnesses rarely become Mormons, whether they’re active or ex-. And I understand why. Any person leaving any church in bitterness feels that they’ve been manipulated, deceived, and that they’ve wasted a lot of time for nothing. That’s why many become atheists. But at the same time it’s foolish to put the Mormons in the same category as the WTBTS. There’s no ritual shunning, Latter-day Saints can visit any church they want or read any religious materials they wish. They can ask any question they wish in the various classes, they’re not forced into doing missionary work, they’re actually encouraged to seek the highest education they can, and our scholars are known also for the work they do outside of the church and are recognized for the work they do in ancient scripture, apocryphal works, archeology, geology, anthropology and many other areas. The Latter-day Saints are completely different, but there’s no convincing some people.
Randy: Witnesses are fond of quoting Ezekiel 18:4 to show the soul is not immortal and can die and Ecclesiastes 9:5 that the dead are unconscious. Annihilation at death is one thing the Witnesses have been consistent about, since their start as International Bible Students. It seems to have stemmed from a general dislike of the hell-fire doctrine by Charles Russell (founder of the Bible Students). In reality it is obvious that death ends animated life.
Yes, the soul that sinneth shall die, according to Ezekiel. But what is death? It’s a separation. Spiritual death is a separation of man and God. Physical death is the separation of the body and spirit. As for Ecclesiastes, it’s clearly a philosophic book and not an eschatological book. If written by Solomon, we have to remember that he was seduced by women of other cultures, and that he allowed them to erect altars to their gods. His life was largely a disappointment. The author of Ecclesiastes was a bitter man who saw human knowledge and progress as insignificant. He also said that “And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, said the preacher, the whole is vanity.” (12:7) In other words, man comes to the earth, lives his life, then returns to God, and what does he accomplish? Jeremiah was told that he was known by the Lord before he came to the earth (Jer. 1:5). And the apostles asked Jesus, “Master, who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind?” (John 9:2) How could that man sin before his birth if he did not exist? Jesus made no attempt to correct them. Peter also tells us that Jesus, while he was gone from his body, “preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Pet. 4:6) How could he preach to the dead if they were not aware? As we’ve discussed on this board, if people are not eternal, those who are resurrected would be merely exact duplicates of the original person. They would not be the original. Once you blink out of existence, God can only bring you back by creating a duplicate being with all of your thoughts and memories. That person wouldn’t know any different, because he would have all your thoughts and memories, but the you that now exists would be gone forever.
You’re also correct that death ends animated life. If you’ve ever lost a family member or friend, or if you’ve ever had an animal as a pet, once dead, the body looks different. It’s clearly a shell in which the spirit, an eternal being, resides.
Randy: When we see injustice, we want to see it dealt with. ... When a child is born into poverty and dies before the age of 5, it reeks of injustice. How can this be solved?
Injustice? How? The Lord has stated that children who die return to the Lord and will inherit eternal life, without the necessity of going through the pain and suffering of human life. I wish I could have died that young, though if I had, I don’t think I would have appreciated death and a return to God as much. Most righteous people who suffer death recount that it’s like having a tremendous burden lifted from their shoulders. On the other hand, many of those who live selfish, hedonistic lifestyles or reject the existence of God experience fear and for that reason refuse to move on. Many remain in the land of the living, being neither seen nor heard, fearful that if they move on, that they will suffer punishment.
Randy:Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are ordained ministers.
Indeed they do. But from whence do they get their authority? They certainly aren’t ordained. They also don’t have the opportunity of baptizing their friends or children. I was actually ordained, and I have a lineage of my priesthood. I also baptized my father a few years ago shortly before his death, and it was a tremendous thrill and honor to do so. But if Jehovah’s Witnesses are ordained, how does it happen? Hands on head? No, by baptism, and that is completely unscriptural.
Randy:Believing Witnesses would likely say "how dare they..." in regards to the claims of made by the LDS leaders, "see, our leaders are much more humble" they would claim. Pragmatically, though, it works out to be about the same.
They may surmise such, but do the JW Governing Body members see visions, have angelic ministrations? In the early days of the LDS church, after Joseph and Hyrum Smith were murdered, many of the apostles were spread all over the U.S. and I think one or two may have been in Europe. Many of the apostles who were closest to Nauvoo, the home of the saints, received revelations telling them to return immediately and not to reorganize until a majority of the Twelve was present. Turning to Jerusalem, John writes in Revelation 11 that two prophets will be raised up by the Lord to defend Judah during Armageddon. Both will have the power of the ancient prophets and will keep the Beast and the False Prophet from progressing from the valley into the city. But after 42 months, the enemy will break through and kill them. How can they be prophets if they aren’t called and ordained? How can the Jews build their temple and sanctify it, and offer sacrifices, if the Jewish Cohens (priests) aren’t taught how to do it?
Barry: Have any artifacts been found mentioned in the Book of Mormon that are found in the Americas? Things like arrow heads, coins or art works? Have any of the numerous cities been found also mentioned in the Book of Mormon? The flora and fauna in the Book of Mormon is also false isn't it?
Oh, yes. The Book of Mormon talks about a son of King Zedekiah who was led to the Americas and thus escaped the destruction of Jerusalem. His name was Mulek, and he and those he came with settled in the land; however, because Mulek and his family did not have a copy of the Hebrew scriptures with them, they lost their identities, their language, and they assimilated into other peoples. When the Nephites discovered them years later, they couldn’t even communicate with them, but because the Nephites had a copy of the scriptures on brass plates, they were able to tell the Mulekites about their origins.
Critics say that Joseph Smith erred in adding that part to the Book of Mormon because all of Zedekiah’s sons were killed in front of the king, and then he was blinded, so this was the last thing he saw before losing his sight. In recent years, however, archeologists have uncovered evidence that Zedekiah did have a son named MLK. Since the vowels were removed, we have only the consonants, but they have recovered his royal seal. If Joseph Smith invented the story, how could he have known all about the Arabian deserts, how could he have provided perfect directions in the Old World without a single error, and why does the Book of Mormon text contain chiasms and other Hebraisms? Even when Isaiah is quoted in the Book of Mormon, it’s almost entirely what scholars have termed “First Isaiah” (on the theory that there were at least four writers who contributed to the book). The other two references were from “Second Isaiah.” This would indicate that these Isaiah passages were all originals and written by Isaiah.
There are many other evidences that the Book of Mormon is a genuine history. Going back to Mulek, he most likely came to the New World with some Phoenicians. Three reasons. First, Zedekiah had trading treaties with the Phoenicians. Two, the Phoenicians were outstanding sailors and were really the only ones with the technology to make the trip. Finally, the primary river in the Book of Mormon lands is called “Sidon.” Why would Jews name a river after a Phoenician city? Yet the Book of Mormon is silent on why the river was called Sidon.
This seal dates to the time of the reign of king Zedekiah. The
actual stamp or ‘seal’ has the surface size of smaller coin
though its thickness is greater. The stone stamp or seal is
at the right first column and the second column contains a
clay impression left by the stamp and a detailed artist’s
reproduction of the actual Hebrew characters. The one half
of the seal ‘spells’ out in Hebrew the name which would be
pronounced as (lemalkiyahu) or “to Malkiyahu” meaning
‘belonging to Malkiyahu’. And the other half of the seal
registry reads “ben hamelek” which translates
‘ben - son of’ ‘ha - the’ and ‘melek - king’. -
cofty
Dec. 2013 Mormon Church throws Brigham Young under the bus for his racist teachings. These same teachings were "official" until 1978.
Oct. 2013 Yet another sex abuse law suit against the Mormon Church. C hurch leaders are accused of covering up allegations that the son of local church officials sexually abused 12 children over the course of more than five years. T he suit alleges that the church, through its leaders, has tried to intimidate the families of the children suing the church and has allegedly directed fellow church members to try to convince them to abandon their claims "lest they run afoul of church teachings regarding forgiveness
June 2013 Mormon missionaries to work out of local church buildings to proselytize on the Internet
Feb. 2013 Mormon Church income annually through tithing is estimated at 7 billion dollars
Dec. 2012 If paying tithing means that you can't pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can't pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don't have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing. Ensign Dec. 2012 [Mormon Church Official Magazine]
Feb 2012 Th e Mormon Church has become even more intrusive by requiring members to wear their sacred long underwear [garments] even while doing yard work.
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Cold Steel
Randy: The terms "ministerial servant" and "elder" are drawn from NT Greek. Jehovah's Witnesses sincerely believe they are following 1st century Biblical patterns in how they are organized. Even how local congregations are named, such as the naming of "Union Hills" in Phoenix, where I was an elder, reflect upon patterns of congregation naming in Revelation and Paul's NT writings.
The question is whether the ancient church can be established with only a Bible? Alexander Campbell and Charles T. Russell thought so. But their churches have completely different doctrines. In fact, most churches think the Bible is the source of their authority, but the problem is, Campbell’s followers think Russell’s followers are going to burn in an eternal hell while Russell’s followers think Campbell’s followers will be annihilated at Armageddon. It doesn’t matter whether the people are good or evil, or what they’ve done for their fellow man, one God is pitted against another and that the losers are bruisers!
Is the Bible supposed to be a source of authority? Of course not. Papyrus scrolls cannot be a source of divine authority any more than a ministerial certificate bought off the Internet can. The Bible is neither complete nor inerrant. It doesn’t tell us how to baptize, who can baptize, what to say during the baptism or whether sprinkling will do when circumstances render it impossible to do otherwise. Also, can women baptize if no one else is available? How about the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost? Is that still necessary? (The LDS are the only Christians that I know of that still does it.) Again, if so, who can do it? How is it done? What are the words said and, again, can women do it? How about ordinations? Does baptism confer priesthood? If so, what kind of priesthood? What are the duties of bishops? Elders? Priests? Deacons?
These are only a few examples of things the Bible is silent on. Campbell’s church operates on the adage: “Where the Bible speaks, we speak; where the Bible is silent, we are silent.” Since the Bible says nothing of musical instruments in church ceremonies, the Campbellites have no pianos or organs. And even though the Bible doesn’t authorize church hymnals, they let that slide and include them.
There’s only one source of authority in the Bible, and that’s God. And people have to be called and ordained by someone in authority. And if you belong to another church, there’s nothing in the scriptures that say you’ll be annihilated or condemned to hell. Elane Durham was a Catholic woman who had a near death experience (fully documented with medical records and statements of people who were there when she passed). She said that she asked her angelic guide which church on Earth was right:
This was in 1976. Her account was investigated by George G. Ritchie, whose own near death experience inspired Raymond Moody to dedicate his life to investigating these experiences. Ritchie said “[A] facet of her book that I feel is extremely important, is the fact that her death has been verified by both the medical profession and the Catholic Deacon who administered her the Last Rites. I say this because so many people are writing about their NDEs today who can produce no proof of their having been anywhere near death.”
In the early 90s, Elane joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, after searching various churches throughout Christianity. Her account proves nothing, however, and I realize that; but I find it significant in that I’ve read of no other near-death account where someone has even asked about churches during such an experience. And while her guide answered her, he didn’t name the LDS church, but simply explained that one should look for a church based on the same precepts as the ancient Christian church. In other accounts by other people, I don’t know of one person who was asked which church they belonged to. Instead, they were asked, “What have you done for your fellow man?” That doesn’t mean it’s not important; however, it does indicate that the Savior is more interested in what is in your heart. And people who belong to religions that exclude others from salvation will, I think, find their own salvation in jeopardy.
Cofty: Ex-Mormons.org
If you’ve ever studied anti-Christian writings, you’ll see the same techniques used to discredit it. I’ll put all these things in the believe it or don’t category. I had an early Philosophy professor who used similar charges against the Christian faith. Satan is said to be an “accuser,” and I would take your accusations more seriously if you didn’t cut and paste them from questionable sources. I suggest you spend more time at FairMormon.org and Jeff Lindsay’s website before pasting the railing accusations.
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Qcmbr
Cold - what information have you considered that is not supportive of Mormonism?
No matter how impressive you think Mormon scholarly efforts are you must , if you think long and hard about it, wonder why non Mormon scholars disagree completely with ancient history of America as described by Joseph and his non Mormon contempories. Where Mormon scholars talk about real things ( like the dead sea scrolls) there is a vast agreement and support from all other educational bodies. To a believing Mormon this discrepancy can only be squared by imagining a vast , coordinated, secular conspiracy to discredit Mormonism by suppressing truth. Common sense tells us that the reason such organisations as the Smithsonian don't agree to Jaredite,Nephite and Lamanite existence is for far simpler and more honest reasons - no evidence whatsoever, no buildings, no remains, no records and no artefacts.
- Joseph has sex with his adopted daughter (16 years old)
- Joseph has sex with married women
- Joseph drinks alcohol, owns businesses involved in alcohol production and sale all after his factually incorrect Word of Wisdom revelation
- Joseph makes up tall tales regularly ( for example claiming a stone structure was actually Adam's altar but forgetting what a flood would do)
- Joseph caught pretending to translate ( kinder hook, Greek psalter and in our day Book of Abraham)
- Joseph writes a book full of copy errors , factual mistakes and impossibilities - in the style of a pious schoolbook from his youth - and then tries to sell it
- Joseph tells people of supernatural occurrences many years after and gets his salient facts wrong many times ( confusing Nephi with Moroni, giving different divine responses to different questions to different people in the same 'First Vision')
There has to be a point where you recognise a charismatic con man when you see him.
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cofty
Cold Steel its intersting that you dismiss ex-Mormons in the same way that JWs dismiss ex-JWs and evangelicals do the same to ex-christians.
Typical of all authoritarian cults.
