MANDATORY Reporting of Child Abuse

by silentlambs 129 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    Hi, Joel

    You wrote:

    Bill answered your questions. In your last post, you change the scenario of the questions.
    No, I did not change a thing, and Bill did not answer my questions. All he gave was a reply, and I think he knows it.

    I restated the same questions and Bill’s responses and asked what he meant by his responses. Nothing has changed. I am still seeking clear answers from Bill on the same questions. This is necessary because Bill’s replies can mean different things. Here, I’ll show you.

    Adult to Bill:

      I was abused as a child and would like to talk with you about it, but I cannot do this if you will automatically report the matter to authorities. Will you help me under the condition that whether I ever report this will be left up to me?

    Bill’s reply:

      I’ll help you see the importance of reporting the crime that was committed upon you and to report the crime in harmony with Federal Law. If you decide not to sign the complaint papers then I’ve done all I can.

    Now, Joel, you tell me. Did Bill answer in his reply whether he would or would not report what he heard from the adult whether they decided to report it themselves, or not? You tell me.

    If you were the adult you would ask Bill the same questions I did so you could know what he meant by his reply.

  • silentlambs
    silentlambs

    Joel,
    Thanks for your clarity in seeing my answers were clear. Believe it or not I have no smart remarks or insults to point in your direction, though I have made mistakes I try to only take a stand where I feel the silentlambs organizaton and what we are working for is under attack.

    In my opinion, by their posts Path and Marvin reveal their agendas have little to do with protecting children, thus I feel my efforts have been worth while. Of course, that is my opinion, but it is an opinion that will continue until these men prove otherwise. It is my hope someday they will see the need to use some of this energy they use to foment subtle arguement to misrepresent and confuse the truth and instead work with a meaningful effort that will protect children. I will look forward to that day if and when it occurs.

    Marvin,
    "Simple questions, simple answers, yet somehow I feel it is not enough to satisfy those who are not really looking for answers."

    Brother, you just got busted...

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    Okay, Bill, your response here shows me all I need to know. Thinking people will consider my efforts here and your replies and will conclude for themselves what to make of it. Good day to you.

    Alan, and the rest who know what’s going on here but have remained silent:

    Don’t talk to me anymore about trying to understand Bill, or about coming together in some united effort that includes him. I cannot unite with someone who refuses to clarify telling questions. Certainly not after giving it a Spartan effort (and you should know what this means if you know anything about history).

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    Read the full text here and remember about the wisdom of not trying to serve TWO MASTERS:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=21867&site=3

    >Remaining in Association with Jehovah’s Witnesses

    >An active baptized member of Jehovah’s Witnesses finds significant errors taught in the central publication of the religion, The Watchtower journal. The error is taught with frequency in private and public settings arranged by the religion. The significance reaches to the point that, in some circumstances, premature death could result from abiding by the error. What conscientious options are available to this member?

    >Or, is it possible to remain a member and retain the same dignity and conscience? This writer believes the individual’s conscience and personal dignity—their honor—can be retained in either setting, but that the third choice has unique honor.

    >...instance (remaining a member) the individual is not taking a public stance of repudiating the error, but neither are they removing themselves from membership, formally or informally. Even in this case it is possible the person is acting honorably. How so? The individual may simply be trying to do all possible to root out the error by whatever means is otherwise available and at the same time cause as little emotional, mental and spiritual upheaval as possible. This person believes emotional and mental stability are essential to happiness and that meaningful spiritual aspiration is essential for both. On one hand they realize an erroneous teaching is death dealing in certain circumstances, but they believe they can make more gains on overcoming this error by working from within and helping to change the flaw, and at the same time not cause the meaningful spiritual aspiration of others to be overcome to the point of causing them to effectively experience a living death that could last for many, many years. Again, this person has made a choice in good conscience, they have acted honorably.

    Experience shows that a person who recognizes the error but remains a Jehovah’s Witness will find themselves ridiculed from persons inside and outside the religion. Why is this?

    >Some persons outside the religion will feel you are a coward for not standing up denouncing the error publicly. These ridiculers are also likely to feel by virtue of continued membership you are helping to perpetuate the error. On top of calling you a coward, these will also repudiate you as a hypocrite. On the other side of the aisle some persons inside the religion will feel you are a hypocrite for continuing a membership in something you are not in full agreement with. These ridiculers will denounce you as a spying traitor in that you are not in full agreement but remain privy to inside information anyway. This situation may be the worst of all because persons both sides make you the object of ridicule.

    >This is an act of neighborliness that, in my opinion, reflects the historical record of Jesus who was willing to build up a person rather than tear them down. This Jesus recognized when people were acting in good conscience and commended them accordingly. Such a course has the practical value of always rewarding conscientious choices, which encourages thoughtfulness, and that is something that no one can intelligently criticize.

    What brings on these comments? I am one who has chosen the third option mentioned above. There are many others like me who I know personally, and we have all experienced that described above. Thankfully I can report that discouragement has come only from what I will respectfully call idiots, on both sides. That is, whenever a thoughtful person on either side realized the good conscientious choice, they responded encouragingly. Of course, idiots are not thoughtful and they act accordingly. Quite a few of my friends have succumbed to vicious emotional assaults from idiots on both sides, and their lives are the worse as a result. Of course, they knew the stakes of making the choice they made, so they are not complaining.

    >In the scenario I speak of, they have not removed themselves from membership but instead have made a choice to stand and fight for gains as best the system will allow it. This is not an easy fight. Those who have experienced it know the fight is extremely demanding and, in the end, in most cases the person ends up being caste out of the religion because of thoughtless persons who do not comprehend the good fight, or else they are just plain worn out to a point where they can no longer keep up the fight. In this case they still have not withdrawn. Rather, it can be said they have fought the fine fight to the finish. These are the only ones who cannot be deemed traitors by virtue of withdrawing membership
    __________________________________________________________________

    You were warned about this MS and all the Marvin Shilmers a long time ago. About serving two masteers. About trying to have your cake and eat it too.

    That crises of conscience was going to come some day, is the the day?

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    dungbeetle

    I feel the same today as the day I penned those words. If anyone has questions about what I wrote then, like you I encourage them to read the entire text, including my comments of clarification on the second page of that thread.

    For me nothing has changed because for me life is simple. I still do the best I can each day of the week to help other people and be a good neighbor. I do not complain about reaping whatever comes my way for the path in life I’ve chosen because the choice was mine and I made it. I wouldn’t give that freedom away for anything.

    Regarding what has occurred on this thread of posts, I am not afraid to answer for my positions, no matter how detailed the questions become of them. The reason for this is simple: I have thought through my convictions and am willing to debate their merit. But I will not waste my time arguing with people like you who prove they are willing to assert accusations against people yet not prove them by offering evidence to substantiate them. This you have done on this very thread. Furthermore, I will not waste my time debating critical details of important issues with people who repeatedly refuse to stand up and give straightforward answers to straightforward questions. To me this is cowardly and dishonest.

    What has been said here is enough for thinking people to make of it what it is. What idiots make of it bothers me not. I only feel pity for them.

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    >I do not complain about reaping whatever comes my way for the path in life I’ve chosen because the choice was mine and I made it. I wouldn’t give that freedom away for anything. <

    First of all, sounds like you're doing a lot of complaining to me.

    Secondly, I'm sure you haven't changed your mind about "Only idiots have attacked me for my postion." Well, in case you haven't noticed, Bill and I were not one of them.

    That's NICE of you to remember that and think about that NOW...NOT. This is what people like me GET from YOU when we give you what you ask? THANKS FOR NOTHING. Isn't that ALWAYS what rape/molestation survivors in YOUR PRECIOUS WATCHTOWER get when we 'give you what you want'..nothing. NOTHING!!!!

    Oh wait, we do get something...

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspid=26684&site=3&page=1
    we get called...

    disorder,
    corruption,
    moral and perhaps economic deterioration.
    wickedness of evildoers
    slander
    harmful gossip
    obscene talk
    idle chatter
    disgruntled,
    dissatisfied,
    find fault
    speak bitterly about the ways things are done
    poisonous root that can spread and poison others "who initially were unaffected."
    want more authority and prominence.
    stir up rumors that there is injustice,
    stir up rumors that there is ethnic prejudice or the like in the congregation or on the part of elders.
    their mouths can cause division.
    despised his own fellowman,
    walking about as a slanderer
    uncovering confidential talk
    great harm caused by someone who lacks good judgment
    in want of heart.
    carries on loose talk to the pont of slander or reviling.
    unwholesome influence.

    all in one WT article...gee thanks!!!

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    dungbeetle

    Just a quick question for you:

    When I say the WTS’ child abuse policy is disingenuous and amoral, what do you think that means? What do you think such an assertion says about how I view the policy?

  • waiting
    waiting

    Gee, dung, thanks for taking my post and not giving credit to the apostate who wrote it. When you're done insulting Marvin (who I don't know any better than you do), children will still be molested. All you're doing is taking a thread, showing your anger, and insulting another poster. Bad form, on your part, once again.

    Hello Bill,

    Quote: Question 1:

    If presented with a situation where a minor comes to you and says they had been abused but persisted that they would not talk about their experience to anyone who would automatically report the matter to authorities, would you offer them help on the condition of leaving the prerogative of reporting to them or would you turn them away?

    Neither, I would help the child see the importance of reporting the CRIME and I would help them report the crime in harmony with Federal Law. That is what mature adults do when they wish to help children.

    (end quote by Bill)

    Actually, you didn't answer the question posed. But your answer is interesting. You would talk with the child - who absolutely did not want to report the abuse - and "help the child see the importance" and then "help them report the crime." I thought the kid was absolutely against reporting the crime? How did he change his feelings - so slowly or rapidly?

    In other words, the option of talking to a kid, just for the sake of talking to a kid, doesn't exist. You would talk to him, and then change his mind......and get him to report, even though he was deadset against it.

    Perhaps we all need a break from these things? Even police take breaks - hell, they go out and get stinkin' drunk now and again - just to come to grips with dealing with child molestation. I know one detective - he said it was necessary for sanity in the long run.

    Take care.

    waiting

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    MS: I'll tell you what it looks like to me based on your posts.

    It looks like to me that you are are going to disagree with a lot of things about the Watchtower, but you aren't going to let that take away from you all the years you have invested in this book publishing company.

    It looks like to me that you aren't going to let all the dead bodies of children and all the expelled/shunned rape/molestation survivors in this whole dang world take away from you all the years you have invested in this book publishing company.

    It looks like to me that you aren't going to let the suffering of all the JW's like me and others in thsi whole world stand between you and the BIGGER FISH IN THE LITTLER POND that you hope to be some day.

    So where does a person draw the line. My spouse/children won't speak to me if I don't go to meetings...my spouse/children won't speak to me if I don't go to assemblies...My spouse/children won't speak to me if I don't stand by and see rape/molestation survivors expelled/shunned...

    Marvin, should people have NO limits? Should people draw the line ANYWHERE? Shouldn't there be a point where you to say to your 'friends' and 'family' to "f**k off" becasue what they are asking of you is not worth ONE MORE PERSON'S LIFE?

    The questions are asked rhetorically, by the way. It's not as though we ALL haven't had to deal with these questions.

    Dungbeetle...of the "I don't always know what to do and I don't have all the answers either" klass...

  • silentlambs
    silentlambs

    I think I will just let the work of silentlambs stand for what it is and encourage "thinking" ones to do what their hearts moves them to do.

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