MANDATORY Reporting of Child Abuse

by silentlambs 129 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    The proof is on Bill's site as he has told you and told you and told you and told you.

    The proof is also my eyewitness TESTIMONY as I have told you and told you and told you and told you. I have SEEN people reporting to the authorites disfellowshiped and I have SEEN them shunned WITH MY OWN EYES.

    Not only has there been no change in Watchtower policy (they're lying sack 0' s**t BOE letters to the contrary) for the better, the Watchtower policy is degenerating and deteriorating AS WE SPEAK...

    WHAT ABOUT THIS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND!!!!

    You going to sit on the fence and serve two masters--

    DON'T YOU COME WHINING AT US!!!!

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    Hello, outnfree,

    Do we know one another?

    I am not Joel, if that is your connotation.

    You write:

    We all know that the WT Society in practice has NOT encouraged victims of child abuse/incest/rape, etc., to go to secular authorities. (In some cases, the Society even wrongs the victims by disfellowshipping them.) This is just wrong, wrong, wrong. A CRIME has been committed.

    If the WT Society would use its considerable influence over its [brainwashed] members to actually write an article in the KM to ALL publishers that any victims of a sexual crime of any sort should DEFINITELY and IMMEDIATELY report the crime to the police, allow the police to gather evidence, and get whatever treatment -- medical or psychiatric is necessary to begin the healing process IMMEDIATELY THEREAFTER -- even if the perpetrator should be a family member or member of the congregation, enormous good would result.

    If the matter did concern incest or abuse by another JW, and the Society STRONGLY RECOMMENDED the publisher to contact the elders with the information AFTER contacting Child Protective Service and/or the police so that intra-Society discipline could commence as the loving shepherds protected the flock, what an enormous burden would be lifted off the 'Friends'' shoulders.

    I agree with all of this. Over and over I have promoted the same ideas myself.

    As for the "two witness" rule, there is much confusion between people's understanding of how that provision should be practiced under current WTS policy. But, really, if WTS policy changes to that of always encouraging victims to report child abuse to law enforcement authorities then how the biblical "two witness' rule might or might not be applied congregationally becomes a very small issue, almost to the point of insignificance. Rest assured that secular authorities in developed lands do not apply a "two witness" rule as is applied by the WTS, so for them this would not pose a problem. But, secular authorities do have "rules" that sometimes let criminals go free. For instance, they tend to work under a theory of protecting the rights of innocent ones even if the result is letting a few criminals go free. That ideology too has its shortcomings.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    Dungbeetle's words preserved for posterity:

    The proof is on Bill's site as he has told you and told you and told you and told you.

    The proof is also my eyewitness TESTIMONY as I have told you and told you and told you and told you. I have SEEN people reporting to the authorites disfellowshiped and I have SEEN them shunned WITH MY OWN EYES.

    Not only has there been no change in Watchtower policy (they're lying sack 0' s**t BOE letters to the contrary) for the better, the Watchtower policy is degenerating and deteriorating AS WE SPEAK...

    WHAT ABOUT THIS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND!!!!

    You going to sit on the fence and serve two masters--

    DON'T YOU COME WHINING AT US!!!!

    I guess this means you are not going to provide proof of your accusation against the so-called 'tweedledum and tweedledee' that both "will have you believe that anyone anywhere can make a child abuse report and not be sanctioned by Watchtower"?

    My question about your assertion was just that--a question. From your ranting answer I assume now you assert that since February 15, 2002 the WTS approves of congregational sanctions against JWs who reports child abuse to authorities? Is this what you say you have evidence for? If so, I haven't seen it. Show it to us.

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    There is no confusion over the two witness rule. The elder's book is up on the web.

    If an eyewitness sees a JW smoking (the example given) and a short time later another,different eyewitness observes a JW smoking, the smoking JW can be disfellowshiped. (Pay Attention book, Elder's school audio)

    In the case of molestation, and ONLY molestation and related type acts, the two-witness rule is suspended. It is construed in favor of: there must be TWO different credible witnesses to the same acts for a jucicial action to be initiatd..and then don't hold your breath. (WT 11/1/95)

    Now compare this with the ONE-WITNESS rule in effect for the victims: a rape/molestation survivor that 'confesses' to their sustained abuse can be disfellowshiped for their 'uncleaness, fornication' or whatever else for not not resisting enough---BASED ON JUST THEIR OWN CONFESSIONS. (various WT and Awakes)

    I mean, this has only been going on for ALMOST FORTY YEARS....

    SICK SICK SICK BAS**ARDS.

    WATCHTOWER YOU WILL PAY AND PAY AND PAY.

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    J.R.Brown has never retracted the two-witness exception...I can't prove a negative, neither should I have to. The 'exception' is still in effect unless and untill Watchtower says otherwise.

    As for your question/accusation about PROOF since February this year...those individuals are still disfellowshiped and still shunned (although not df'd or da'd) as we speak. Bill has seen it with his own eyes and so have I.

    You can chose not to believe something unless you see it with your own eyes, and I can understand that.

    But saying I don't see or hear what I see and hear is nothing less than laughable. Has your present affiliation with the Watchtower effected and OBSCURED your objectivity THAT MUCH?

  • silentlambs
    silentlambs

    I decided for the benefit of all concerned to answer in a clear and concise manner the questions Marvin posed. Now I encourage all to notice how he responds to short direct answers to this questions and see if this really is a search for truth and understanding.

    Question 1:
    If presented with a situation where a minor comes to you and says they had been abused but persisted that they would not talk about their experience to anyone who would automatically report the matter to authorities, would you offer them help on the condition of leaving the prerogative of reporting to them or would you turn them away?

    Neither, I would help the child see the importance of reporting the CRIME and I would help them report the crime in harmony with Federal Law. That is what mature adults do when they wish to help children.

    Question 2:
    If the person were an adult victimized in childhood with the same request, what would you do?

    I would help the adult see the importance of reporting the CRIME and would help them report the crime in harmony with Federal Law. If they then made the personal decision to not sign complaint papers then I would have done all that I can do other than warn anyone who I may know personally who has contact with the molester.
    This is what caring people in positions of responsibility do when they wish to protect children.

    Question 3:
    Assuming the WTS one day invokes a policy that elders should always encourage victims of abuse to report the crime to authorities, then,

    If a child approaches an elder and says, “I want to talk about being molested, but I am unwilling to do it if law enforcement must be notified of who did it to me,” would you have the elder turn the child away or provide them with whatever help they could otherwise give?

    Neither, the elder would help the child see the importance of reporting the CRIME and would help them report the crime in harmony with Federal Law. This is how an elder would protect the congregation from danger.

    In answering this question keep in mind that the child approaches the elder, not the other way around. If the elder turns down offering whatever help they could have because of mandatory reporting and the child never approaches anyone else for help, who has been protected?

    No one, as the elder would help the child see the importance of reporting the CRIME and would help them report the crime in harmony with Federal Law. Individuals who are adult and in positions of responsibility have to do what is in the interests of all concerned as any person who is in a profession would advise.

    Who, then, would have an opportunity to encourage and strengthen the child to a point where they would turn in their abuser?

    The elder or whoever hears any HINT of child molestation would help the child see the importance of reporting the CRIME and would help them to report the crime in harmony with Federal Law.

    Simple questions, simple answers, yet somehow I feel it is not enough to satisfy those who are not really looking for answers.

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    Let me put it this way:

    Right now, there are those in the organization, in postions of responsibility and privilege who are

    little fish in a big pond.

    By the time the clean-up and shake-out of the Watchtower THAT THEY HOPE FOR has occurred, and all the JW's who are going to leave are gone, and especially all the 'overseers' and such-like who are going to leave are gone...they will be ...

    Bigger fish in a littler pond.

    THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!!!

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    Bill,

    Thanks for making clear what you want the Watchtower to do and thanks for answering the other questions as well.

    I have never and am still not against your cause. I will continue to stress to you how silly you look when you don't handle critiques or reasonable debate on the issue seriously but rather resort to name calling and hyperbolic verbal gesticulation.

    I will also call you to account when you resort to childishness such as putting signs in your front yard when you live one mile from a Kingdom Hall knowing all you are doing is repeating the squeeling tires routine and trying to jibe people into an emotional response. It makes you look like a goof.

    Call me names too if you like, but remember sometimes your harshest critic turns out to be your staunchest supporter. I call them like I see them and when shown to be wrong, I consistently apologize and back down.

    Joel

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    My, my, what games you play, Bill. Talk about ambiguity! I guess no body should have thought asking for straightforward and unambiguous answers would elicit straightforward and unambiguous answers. Guess we’ll have to now ask that Bill interpret his responses so we can get answers.

      Question 1:

      If presented with a situation where a minor comes to you and says they had been abused but persisted that they would not talk about their experience to anyone who would automatically report the matter to authorities, would you offer them help on the condition of leaving the prerogative of reporting to them or would you turn them away?

        Bill’s response:

        Neither, I would help the child see the importance of reporting the CRIME and I would help them report the crime in harmony with Federal Law. That is what mature adults do when they wish to help children.

    Should I interpret your response to mean:

    A. Yes, I would help them in spite of the condition that I not automatically report, and later hopefully they will agree to remove the condition of not reporting, maybe even reporting the matter themselves.

    Or:

    B. Regardless of the child’s feelings I will report to authorities whatever I know of this child being abused, even if it means the child will not let me help them beyond the initial query to me.

    For those concerned, in this situation I would go with B. Because children are not generally competent to understand or know what is or might be in their best interest, regardless of the child’s feelings I would report to authorities whatever I know of a child being abused, even if it means the child will not let me help them beyond their initial query to me. (Bill: this is an example of a straightforward and unambiguous answer)

      Question 2:

      If the person were an adult victimized in childhood with the same request, what would you do?

        Bill’s response:

        I would help the adult see the importance of reporting the CRIME and would help them report the crime in harmony with Federal Law. If they then made the personal decision to not sign complaint papers then I would have done all that I can do other than warn anyone who I may know personally who has contact with the molester.

    Should I interpret your response to mean:

    A. Yes, I would help them in spite of the condition that I not automatically report, and later hopefully they will agree to remove the condition of not reporting, maybe even reporting the matter themselves.

    Or:

    B. Regardless of the person’s feelings I will report to authorities whatever I know of them being abused as a child regardless of whether they are willing to sign complaint papers, even if it means the victim will not let me help them beyond the initial query to me.

    For those concerned, in this situation I would go with A. Because adults are generally competent to understand and know what is or might be in their best interest I would respect their decision to not report their victimization to authorities by agreeing to abide to the initial condition that I not automatically report it myself. I would probably not agree with an adult making a choice not to report, but I would respect their initial request and my agreement with it by virtue of going ahead and helping them as much as I could otherwise. (Bill: this is an example of a straightforward and unambiguous answer)

    To avoid redundancy, the same set of requests for clarification is made in respect to the child and/or adult voicing request to an elder, assuming a change at some time in the future where WTS policy would require that elders always encourage victims to report criminal allegations to authorities, which has to do with the third question I asked.

    Bill,

    If you persist with your weasel worded answers then we can only conclude you do not want to be understood. For me that will be the end of trying to clarify my understanding of what you have to say. My efforts to help victims of child abuse among Jehovah’s Witnesses will then continue but without worry for how it might overlap, contradict or complicate your efforts. Indeed, how could I do different! Such a situation would be a pity, but so far it is unavoidable. No one can join efforts with a person who refuses to make themselves clear in the face of basic questions expressly for that purpose! Frankly, a person who refuses to make themselves clear usually has something to hide. Whether it is personal ego or failings of some other nature most will never know, or really care. The pity is that a stronger team to help child victims will have been defeated! And by what? Refusal to give straightforward and unambiguous answers! What a damn shame!

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    Marvin,

    Bill answered your questions. In your last post, you change the scenario of the questions.

    Bill answered your first set of questions quite concisely.

    The bottom line is, when a crime is committed, it is the responsibility of a person in a trusted situation, as an elder is, to help the victim, whether child or adult, understand that reporting the crime is a good thing and the healthy thing to do and help the victim come to this understanding for themself.

    Good grief, elders sure as hell can motivate people in all other types of directions, some healthy and some insane.

    Elders should certainly be able to convince all but the most irrational people (who should be referred to a physician) that crimes have to be reported.

    Reporting them accurately and promptly will actually help the accused molester if he is innocent. Handling it above board and within strict guidelines will help clear the name of the innocent quickly and without giving gossip and innuendo the opportunity to arise.

    What I oppose and still oppose is automatically and without question regarding the accused as guilty. And I am still against anything that would allow even one innocent man's (or woman's) life to be ruined by false accusations.

    I see open reporting to be a protection to the victim and the alledged abuser.

    Joel

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit