Josephus and Jesus

by jhine 52 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • mP
    mP

    PSam:

    WHat is contested in regards to the two times Josephus mentions Jesus is what is viewed as added on by later scribes, the majority of h istoricans and scholars do NOT contest that Josepheus is of the opinion that Jesus existed.

    http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/josephus.html

    mP:

    I think th eproblem here is xians dishonestly pretend that this text is even talking about jesus of the gospels when it doesnt. Because of the historical proof prblem they are too willing to see pointers to Jesus when there arent any. Its like all the lies about prophecies to jesus in the OT. When you look a bit harder at them half of them are so bad its really pathetic. Im talking about Micah 5:2(supposedly predicts born in bethlehem) and Isa 7:4(supposedly predicts a virgin birth).

    The bible imho has very few prophecies, people just read texts and want them to predict when they dont. Here is another example of the same xian honesty. Almost never do the texts actually say in plain language what xians claim, they alwasys twist and redefine words all over the place.

  • mP
    mP

    jhine:

    The fact that Josephus does not mention Jesus very much has been addressed on another thread , it has been suggestsd that as a Jew he would not have wanted to give "air time " to this heretical (as he saw it ) sect.

    mP:
    This is a downright lie. He wrote entire enclyclopedias about the histories of the jews including the wars that he witnessed during the 60s. The devotes large portions of text to all the major characters of the time, Romans and Jews, who they were, what they supposedly did and so on. TO say he omitted Jesus of the gospels because he was a heretic is a lie. He wrote about everyone. You might want to review his work in brief and you will see that the statement your making or repeating is not true in the slightest.

    TO preempt your attempt to say he didnt want to record the miracles of jesus, surely a popular leader like him still would have made a big story. Therea re many elements to write about jesus if we eliminate the miracles and supernatural. He travelled to a few places, the temple outrage, the crucifiction, they all make for interesting records.

    We also have the earthquake and zombies in Matthew which Jospehus didnt write about in 33AD. Surely seeing zombies walking about Jerusalem is newsworthy and yet he didnt write it down. Surely if we were there we wuld recall that event. YOu dont have to believe in Jesus or miracles to not be shocked at seeing zombies.

  • mP
    mP

    PSac:

    Even Bart Ehrman sates that the hsitorical Jesus is not really to be debated as such.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/Books/chapter-and-verse/2012/0703/Biblical-scholar-Bart-Ehrman-supports-the-historic-existence-of-Jesus

    mP:

    Have you read his latest book "Did Jesus exist". I have, and his basic argument is that all scholars believe in a historical man called jesus, but they dont believe in the supernatural, such as miracles and resurrection. He doesnt really discuss the 4 big Roman references, Tacitius, Jospehus, Seutonius, Pliny, wonder why?. Read the text and actually write down the proofs, you will find the list is pretty much empty.

    There are lot sof Muslim scholars that also say Mohammad flew to Jeruslame on a horse over night and then went to heaven. Ask them for proof, and guess what you end up with ? Nothing.

  • mP
    mP

    Phizzy:

    ut that still leaves us with the "Jesus who was called Christ" whose parentage is not mentioned, (?) just his connection to James.

    That is the phrase that some claim is a later interpolation is it not ?

    mP:

    Exactly, why is the entire text about Jesus son of Damneus with a single line about Jesus of the gospels. Why does the text talk about J/D and only include one line about JofG ? Wheres the remainder of the gospel story ? Who writes like this ?

  • mP
    mP

    BOHM

    I havent read the entire thread, but I really find the discussion of josepheus confusing.

    Lets just say josepheus wrote everything attributed to him, and lets say josepheus refer to jesus christ when he talk about jesus. That would mean that around year 90 (when Antiquities was written) there were christians who believed:

    • Jesus had a brother called James
    • Jesus was called christ, was a noble man, was killed, there are still christians etc.
    • jesus performed miracles
    • he rose from the dead
    • + some other things.

    And these things was told to him in a manner so persuasive he reported them as facts (but did not convert).

    As far as i can tell, this is telling us christians at around year 90 believed what paulus believed (and convinced others about) some 40 years prior, and they were persuasive -- in other words, absolutely nothing new. If someone had send Josepheus some of pauls letters and those alone had convinced him, he would pretty much have written all of the above.

    I cant even tell why this provide evidence jesus existed (mind im not saying he didnt), because no matter if you are a mythesist or not, you believe that around year 90 the early christians largely believed jesus had in fact lived (because thats what they wrote in Mark) and thats about all josepheus is reporting.

    mP:

    Have you read Pauls letters ? Paul does not know anything about jesus. The only thing he says, is that Jesus was resurrected. NO bethlehem, joseph, miracles, 12 apostles, Mary Magdalene, Pilate, Gethsemane etc. He never writes a single line about his earthly travels.

    The only text that might show some knowledge of Jesus is where Paul mentions in Gal(??) that he visited James brother of the Lord, and he talked to Cephas. Thats it! Is that really proof that he knew Jesus?

  • pirata
    pirata

    Paul L. Maier comments on Josephus's references to Jesus in "Eusebius: A Church history" (2007). Any typos are my own as I had to re-type it:

    Appendix 1: Eusebius' Citation of Josephus on Jesus

    In 1.11 of his Church History Eusebius quotes the famous passage from Josephus's Antiquities (18.63) that mentions Jesus, the longest non-Christian reference to him in literature of the first century a.d. For comparison purposes, the passage is again reproduced here, with several extraordinary phrases that I have italicized:

    About this time lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a a man. For he was the achiever of extraordinary deeds and was a teacher of those who accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When he was indicted by the principal men among us and Pilate condemned him to be crucified, those who had come to love him originally did not cease to do so; for he appeared to them on the third day restored to life, as the prophets of the Deity had foretold these and countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, had not disappeared to this day.

    In Antiquities 20.200, Josephus makes a second reference to Jesus in reporting the death of his half brother James, which is also cited by Eusebius in 2.23. Because Josephus remained a Jew who did not convert to Christianity, the preceding passage has provoked much scholarly literature, especially in view of the italicized phrases.

    Scholars fall into three camps regarding this celebrated reference:

    1. It is entirely authentic, occurring as it does in the middle of Josephus's description of Pilate's administration and in all the manuscripts of Josephus.
    2. It is entirely a Christian forgery, since Origen aserted that Josephus never converted.
    3. It contains Christian interpolations in what was Josephus's authentic report on Jesus.

    The first option would seem hopeless: no Jew could have claimed Jesus as the Messiah who rose from the dead without having converted to Christianity. The second is hardly tenable, since the passage occurs in all Greek manuscripts of Josephus and the undisputed reference to Jesus in 20.200 would doubtless have supplied more identifying material if this were the first mention of Jesus. Accordingly, a large majority of scholars today favor the third option, that the passage has been interpolated.

    Jesus is portrayed as a "wise man', sophos aner in Greek, a phrase not used by Christians but employed by Josephus for such Old Testament figures as David and Solomon. Furthermore, the claim that Jesus won over "many of the Greeks" is not paralleled in the New Testament and thus is hardly a Christian addendum but rather something Josephus would have noted in his own day. And there is new evidence that the italicized phrases were indeed Christian interpolations.

    In 1972, Professor Schlomo Pines of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem announced his discovery of an Arabic manuscript of Josephus written by the tenth-century Melkite historian Agapius, in which the passage in question translates as follows:

    At this time there was a wise man called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. Many peole among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Accordingly, perhaps he was the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have reported wonders. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day *

    Clearly this version of the passage is expressed in a manner appropriate to a non-Christian Jew, and it corresponds almost precisely to previous scholarly projections of what Josephus actually wrote.

    Accordingly, the interpolations in Josephus' text on Jesus must have come early, for Eusebius quotes the standard or traditional version when he published the first seven books of his Church History, probably before 300. That he did not detect the Christian interpolations, however, underscores the fact that he was not a critical historian. Since, however, he did not expand on the apologetic potential in this passage, using it only against forgeries of his own day, he may have had some qualms about its authenticity.

    * While the final sentence is not in Agapius, Pines justifiably concludes that it was in the original Josephan text. See Schlomo Pines , An Arabic Version of the Testimonium Flavianum and Its Implications (Jerusalem: Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities, 1971)

  • mP
    mP

    pirata:

    Scholars fall into three camps regarding this celebrated reference:

    1. It is entirely authentic, occurring as it does in the middle of Josephus's description of Pilate's administration and in all the manuscripts of Josephus.
    2. It is entirely a Christian forgery, since Origen aserted that Josephus never converted.
    3. It contains Christian interpolations in what was Josephus's authentic report on Jesus.

    mP:

    I think its confusing to make assertions that apply to both passages as whole. They really should be treated separately. I will admit that the first passage that you mention above seem to apply to Jesus of the gospels as it does include some qualities of Jesus and is of greater length. THe second text however is way to short.

    You might also find the history of Eusebius interesting. Im pretty sure it was him, that said lying for Jesus was perfectly fine given the greater noble cause. This is often referred to as pius fraud.

  • mP
    mP

    pirata:

    About this time lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a a man. For he was the achiever of extraordinary deeds and was a teacher of those who accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When he was indicted by the principal men among us and Pilate condemned him to be crucified, those who had come to love him originally did not cease to do so; for he appeared to them on the third day restored to life, as the prophets of the Deity had foretold these and countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, had not disappeared to this day.

    mP:

    You might find it interesting but there wre many Jesus who claimed to be leaders or messiahs during the first century. Jesus was a great title for any leader, as it means saviour. Given all trouble makers were executed back then and that Pilate reigned for a considerable time, this is hardly a distinguishing feature. Its not like jesus of the gospels was the only Jesus ever executed. There are many stories of miracles in the gospels. Even the bad guys somehow manage to do miracles. The OT tells us that when Moses & Aaron turned their staffs into snakes so did their Egyptian counterparts. THe NT i think also mention a simon magus that cures the sick etc.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    mP:

    Have you read his latest book "Did Jesus exist". I have, and his basic argument is that all scholars believe in a historical man called jesus, but they dont believe in the supernatural, such as miracles and resurrection. He doesnt really discuss the 4 big Roman references, Tacitius, Jospehus, Seutonius, Pliny, wonder why?. Read the text and actually write down the proofs, you will find the list is pretty much empty.

    Of course they don't believe in the supernatural stuff, why should they?

    The point is that no one ( unbias historians and scholars) really doubts that the person written about in the NT existed, they doubt WHAT was written about him.

  • mP
    mP

    PSac:

    Of course they don't believe in the supernatural stuff, why should they?

    The point is that no one ( unbias historians and scholars) really doubts that the person written about in the NT existed, they doubt WHAT was written about him.

    mP:

    Look at Barts proofs. It seems to me he spends more time telling you that he and his fellow scholars know a regular mortal named jesus existed than actually showing proofs. He never uses Josephus, Taciticus, Pliny & Seutonius as definitive proofs but rather grasps at straws. The book is mostly filler and contains very few actual pointers to what might be considered proof. It reminds me of how the WTS writes up scientific texts. They spend the majority of the time telling your their opinion and rarely try and show a direct proof. Remove all the opinions and your left with little in that book.

    Its always probably this, probably that, simply because the re are literally many many mistakes in the gospels that show the authors had very limited knowledge of the geopgraphy etc and show they were very far removed from Judea for starters.

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