Josephus and Jesus

by jhine 52 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • jhine
    jhine

    On another thread wot I read a few days ago and can't remember which one, someone asked why Josephus never mentions Jesus . At the time I had no knowledge of this so kept quiet . However today while reading an excellent book (don't know if I should advertise but if anyone wants the title let me know ) I have found out that Josephus mentions Jesus in around about manner. in Antiquities Josephus calls James "the brother of the so called Messiah "

    Had to start a new thread as I could'nt find who asked the question . Hope that this is of some help . Sorry if someone else has already pointed this out .

  • ÁrbolesdeArabia
    ÁrbolesdeArabia

    Josephus mentioned "John the Baptist" and how the Jews thought he was going to be something, like a Messiah. I need to look up that passage too, Flavious did mention Jesus too. I remember listening to a critic claim Josephous never existed either, he was a make believe historian created by early Christians to back their false messiah. I know he is going out on a limb with this theory, the same as the scholar denying the Christians fled to Pella!

  • Witness My Fury
    Witness My Fury

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

    A Jesus likely existed, but the supernatural Jesus of the Christians (mainly hijacked by Paul) certainly didn't.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Why did someone have to later tamper with the text of Josephus' writings to include a Jesus that Chrisitians could latch on to ?

    Because the "Historical Jesus" lacks any solid proof.

  • jhine
    jhine

    Phizzy , I think that there is a lot of evidence of an historical Jesus , He is mentioned in Roman reports and I believe in writing by at least one Rabbi of the time I'm sure that I have heard mention that there is at least as much evidence of the existance of Jesus as that of any other historical figure non of whom are questioned . I think that some people don't want Jesus to have existed so don't look at the evidence, just assume that it doesn't exist .

    If Josephus was made up by Christians they would have him mention Jesus a lot wouldn't they . Non of these accusations reallly hold water when you examine them logically do they ?

  • mP
    mP

    jhine:

    Xians basically use two quotes from Josephus to say he knew about Jesus.

    Lets look at one, the one you seem to be paraphrasing. If one reads the entire text its obvious this Jesus is not our Jesus, just look at his father !!!

    Jesus was a common name, any man with ambition to squash the Romans would have used a title like this, after all jesus means saviour.

    http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Antiquities_of_the_Jews/Book_XX#Chapter_9

    Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others

    ...

    <same paragraph>

    reupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.

    ..<few paragraphs down>

    er. This made him more than ordinarily hated by his subjects, because he took those things away that belonged to them to adorn a foreign city. And now Jesus, the son of Gamaliel, became the successor of Jesus, the son of Damneus

    One also needs to realise that a large proportion of men in Judea were called Jacob (James is our form of Jacob). Any sensible person will realise that there were thousands of Jacobs in the country.

    One needs to realise that any rebel or leader against hte Romans would find Jesus a suitable name or title. Jesus means saviour. If you read about Jewish politics about that time you will learn there were many rebel leaders who tried many times to get rid of the Roman monkey but ultimately the Romans had to show who was boss and thats why they destroyed Jerusalem & temple. The Jewish religion with its racist overtones and separation theme didn tmake for very good citizens of the empire. The jews really believed that God was on their side and that they would win if they rebelled. SO they did.

    Its just so pathetic that they would steal such a text as proof, its beyond a joke. Surely a good honest xian shouldnt nee dto lie and twist text that is so obviously wrong its sad.

  • jws
    jws

    I agree with jhine about Josephus. If he were made up by Christians, he'd basically be another gospel book, proclaiming Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. But Jesus hardly gets a mention. There is plenty of other history. Some of it even in evidence against the whole "70 years of Babylonian captivity" idea pushed by the JWs.

    However, I thought the passages regarding Jesus were considered a forgery altered to prove Jesus.

    Was there a Jesus? I don't know of all of the evidence. But there could have been. Just like there was a Hercules (or Haracles). Both just men until tall tales and legends began to be told about them.

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    We will believe what we want to based on our own confirmation bias.

    To me I can see no evidence that the 'historians' prove the Jesus of the Bible. If Jesus were real it would surely be obvious if he were divine or of divine origin.

    Oh, dear. God is such a bad communicator...............I'm let down again!

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Witness My Fury said: "A Jesus likely existed, but the supernatural Jesus of the Christians (mainly hijacked by Paul) certainly didn't."

    Well, everyone is entitled to believe what they wish. In my world, though, and per the Bible, both John and Paul never die. There is a suspicion that the Templars discovered John along with some others still alive from the 1st Century, along with lots of genealogy records and that is the true basis for their search for the so-called "holy grail" which is linked to John. That is, they believe that John was still alive and they are desperate to find him.

    In my personal experience, since I'm the Christ, I got a chance to see and/or meet Paul, John and Jesus' mother, Mary. That's why when Jesus was dying he said to John to take care of his mother. It wasn't because she didn't have other, closer family members to take care of her, but that John and his mother were chosen not to die. I know this might sound funny, but Mary is pretending to be a witness! I met her at a Kingdom Hall. She knew who I was, of course. So that is very interesting.

    Paul was dark complected which I found out later in Scripture that he was considered to be an "Egyptian" who were dark people in the 1st Century. This contrasts with the concept that the Jews of that time looked like modern Mid-Easterners, that is, of a darker comlexion rather than being fair-skinned like many modern Jews. Paul was dark complected, but John looked like the typical white Jew. I was surprised, in fact, that he was so fair-skinned. But that explains as well why Paul, being dark complected, would have been presumed to be Egyptian rather than Jewish. It was a shock to those who were persecuting him that he was actually Jewish.

    But getting back to the point of Jesus being a man of miracles. The "elect today" tend to believe Jesus was a man of miracles simply because Paul, John and Mary are still alive. Now while most people will not accept this reality, it is what the Bible claims! That is, that some alive in the 1st Century would not die before the Christ returns. (Matt. 16:28).

    Further, the Templars are an active and long-time secret society. Their existence if based on the secret knowledge that John and others from the 1st Century are still alive is more logical than them existing based on a lie, such as Jesus having married Mary Magdalene. Plus, the nature of my own secret ministry takes a back seat to John. That is, John's identity is a far more closely guarded secret than my own. In fact, likely interest in me is at least partially increased by a hope that I might lead the Templars to finding John. He is an extremely closely guarded secret, probably because he along with those extant ancient records poses the greatest threat to pagan Christianity.

    All that to say this, if the secret modern elect are aware that Mary, John and Paul and others are still alive from the 1st Century, plus we are aware of the new identities of resurrected ones, then we are hardly worried about trying to defend the gospels in regard to Jesus being a man of miracles! That's because we are now witnessing some of those miracles first hand.

    So, Witness My Fury, thanks for the LAUGH! Doubting and being a skeptic is one thing -- that's fine. But DISPROVING the gospel account is not something you're in a position to do.

    So a lot is going on behind the scenes you are not aware of. Just step back and realize the Templars search for the so-called "holy grail", meaning descendants of Jesus or his relatives is directly linked to John. John even in "The DaVinci Code" is substituted by Mary Magdalene. That is only because it was understood that John had a special relationship with Jesus. Remember, John was the "disciple that Jesus loved." John was the disciple that was on the bosom position of Christ at the Lord's Supper. The Templar's substitution of Mary Magdalene for John, simply addresses their acknowledgement that John and Jesus had a special relationship similar to a marriage, and it was just easier, historically, to represent that between a man and a woman rather than two men. John and Jesus, certainly were not lovers, but Jesus certainly was interested in no woman, if you get my drift.

    At any rate, even the existence of the Templars and this great tradition for the search for the "holy grail" confirms or suggests they discovered John was still alive at Jerusalem when they first went there. When they reported this to the Pope and then were sent back, of course, John and that small congregation of survivors from the 1st Century along with all those records were long gone.

    But it is understandable that persons not of the elect or not close to Jehovah's modern activities would have a basis to doubt and second-guess the Scriptures. I understand. But I just wanted to share that some of us, who happen to be of the elect, have a totally different experience as far as miracles and believing the gospels. Since we are experiencing up close the modern miracles, even conversing with God pesonally, there is no reason to doubt the gospels and certainly know YOU have no authority to challenge what they say or doubting Jesus was the son of God, which he truly was.

    Well, that's my 2 cents. Bing an "insider" has its perks!

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Nobody is saying "Josephus" was made up by anyone, just that the text of some of his works was more than likely tampered with.

    Please give this evidence for the Historical Jesus. Lots of writers with those two words in the Title of their books may be interested in your offerings.

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