Josephus and Jesus

by jhine 52 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • jhine
    jhine

    Phizzy , in the interests of truth and fairness (,I am a Christian !!) I have just read the Josephus mention of Jesus and His death and I have to say that it does not read to me like it is quoting from Christians , it reads as a straightforward report . As I said scholars do think that there may have been some tampering later by Christians but only to "fine tune "the mention . after much debate and look see the general opinion is that the basic facts about Jesus were reported by Josephus . You can look all this up easily yourself.

    YOu make no mention of the other sources I list , which I will read properly myself , again to be fair .There are many articles online about the authenticity of the historical Jesus , so to anyone reading this I urge you to find out for yourselves.

    Mission accomplished and gift bought for soon to be 8yr old grandaughter , I am sure that you are most relieved !.

  • mP
    mP

    jhine:

    yes I was ,in my original post, paraphrasing because I was quoting from the book that i am reading , the author of which is is well versed in all of the ancient writings , he is an ex bishop , So I wondered why he would take the reference to James as to mean the brother of Jesus Christ when these objections of yours would obviously negate that meaning . So I have just read the passages concerned from Antiquities 20.1 onward . It seems that you did a bit of a hatchet job and the parts you left out put a different spin on the whole thing .

    mP:

    I am inclluding the entire paragraph with the original omission in bold. Questions follow...

    AND now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus.

    Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests.

    But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, [23] who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority].

    Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent. [24] Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.

    The first deletion hardly contains vital information that makes the paragraph a perfect match for the jesus of the gospels. If anything it is another example of the poor records in the gospels. Albinus etc is never mentioned in the Bible.

    What deleted text makes my assertion wrong in any way. If one reads the entire text its quite clear that none of it refers to the Jesus of the gospels. At best the text mentions many jesus's. No miracles, no 12 apostles, no virgin birth, no nazareth, no bethlehem, kids being killed and all the other favourite jesus memories are ever metnioned here.

  • Monsieur
  • jhine
    jhine

    In your original post you seem to state that the Jesus mentioned in connection with James CANNOT be THE Jesus because a different father is mentioned . It seems to me that two men called Jesus later in the passage are not the original Jesus connected with James , so the fact that their father's names are not Joseph is of no consequence and does not prove that the Jesus first mentioned is not Jesus Christ son of God. That is my point.

  • mP
    mP

    Jhine:

    In your original post you seem to state that the Jesus mentioned in connection with James CANNOT be THE Jesus because a different father is mentioned . It seems to me that two men called Jesus later in the passage are not the original Jesus connected with James , so the fact that their father's names are not Joseph is of no consequence and does not prove that the Jesus first mentioned is not Jesus Christ son of God. That is my point.

    mP:

    Its more realistic to make the assumption that its not our Jesus & James of the NT than it is. The chance that of some James and some Jesus interacting is a very large number. TO pretend it wasnt another Jesus or James from back then is completely dishonest. Even if we assume both bible charcters existed, and given that there is no other fact that points directly at either of them, the chance value must be in the millions. Given there were 10000+ Jesus and 10000+James we have a very big number that this reference is to our Jesus and our James.

    The fact the father is downright wrong should be enuff proof. The reasonable reason all the other stuff associated with Jesus is missing is because the author never heard of it. Even the name of the other characters doesnt match up with Bble acounts. Theres more wrong than right inthe text.

  • jhine
    jhine

    Again you say "the fact that the father is downright wrong should be enuff proof "

    mP are you delibreately missing the point that the two other men named Jesus are CLEARLY not the same as the Jesus connected to James ?

    Therefore the names of their fathers is irrelevant . No, that doesn't prove that it is the Jesus of the gospels but as you keep asserting it certainly does not discount it ..

    The parentage of the OTHER two men is of no importance at all (except to them )

    The fact that Josephus does not mention Jesus very much has been addressed on another thread , it has been suggestsd that as a Jew he would not have wanted to give "air time " to this heretical (as he saw it ) sect.

    Don't suppose that you have looked at the other non Christian mentions of Jesus cited above . I get the impression that you don't want any of this to be true . I suggest that we leave it at that and agree to disagree.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Assuming the references in our copies of Josephus are what he wrote , and much doubt has been cast for many years, and the same goes for Tacitus et al, it doesn't really get us much further forward.

    Both are writing many years after the events and are reporting what they have been told, so thier view is about as reliable as most historian's, which is, "not very."

    I do not doubt that in all likelihood Jesus of Nazareth existed, it is extremely likely that he was crucified. It seems the bulk of evidence says he lived between the parameters of 7BC to 36AD, most likely 4BC to 31/2 AD.

    Anything more than this is not on a firm foundation. Of course this is common to most historical figures, but if Jesus of Nazareth were anything greater than say a Robin Hood type figure, surely we would have more than the heresay records that we have.

  • mP
    mP

    jhine:

    Again you say "the fact that the father is downright wrong should be enuff proof "

    mP are you delibreately missing the point that the two other men named Jesus are CLEARLY not the same as the Jesus connected to James ?

    mP -> JHine:

    I cant honestly believe that simply because one line says two words james and jesus is enough to match the same names in the bible. We have alrady eastablshed that thenames were very common. What other words from the Josephus text are the basis for your match ? Please give exact quotes with commentary.

  • mP
    mP

    JH:

    Therefore the names of their fathers is irrelevant . No, that doesn't prove that it is the Jesus of the gospels but as you keep asserting it certainly does not discount it ..

    The parentage of the OTHER two men is of no importance at all (except to them )

    mP: Josephus mentions their parentage because its a way of identifying the character jesus mentioned in the text. The jesus character in the text has a father called Damneus(sp). Our jesus in the bible does not. Obviously they are two completely different characters. Its that simple.

    How can Josepheus be writing about our Bible Jesus but get the names completely wrong all in the same paragraph ? If he cant even get the fathers name right the text is hardly credible.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    But that still leaves us with the "Jesus who was called Christ" whose parentage is not mentioned, (?) just his connection to James.

    That is the phrase that some claim is a later interpolation is it not ?

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