"Believers" vs. Atheists- Why this formulation?

by Band on the Run 132 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  EntirelyPossible

  I don't believe it was "decided". I believe it is more of God "foreknew" who would ultimately accept the message and who would not. Free will was never taken away, so people do have control over their destiny. However, it was/is already known what they would decide to do.

  Freewill was abolsutely taken away if God foreknew. If freewill was involved and someone decided to do something different than God foresaw, then he is no God at all and didn't foresee anything. If they HAVE to proceed as God foresaw, then they never had a choice.
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  Christ Alone

  IMO, I think the elect were those Christians pre-selected for "special" works, like the apostles for example.

  So, then, do you think that God does not know who will and who will not be Christians? Do you still hold to the WT view (and I'm not saying this insultingly) that God CHOOSES not to know certain things, and is thus, NOT omniscient?
• 

  PSacramento

  So, then, do you think that God does not know who will and who will not be Christians? Do you still hold to the WT view (and I'm not saying this insultingly) that God CHOOSES not to know certain things, and is thus, NOT omniscient?

  I was never a JW.

  God knows who will or will not follow His Son, yes, beacuse God knows all possible choices we have and knows Us better than we know ourselves.

  He knows why we follow or don't, He knows our intent, which is so much more that what we do.

  You are thinking of the theory of middle knowledge as per WLC, yes?
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  NewChapter

  It is not for ME to judge if you were or not or to what degree you were or not and THAT is my whole point.

  I mentioned that because, for some there is no "degree" of CHristianity, either you are or you are not and if you ever were but are not now, then that means you never were, BUT in MY view, I find that to "black and white" and it has been my experience that things are never that "black n white".

  So you are saying that those that were and now are not were a lesser degree of Christian than those that remain?
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  Christ Alone

  Freewill was abolsutely taken away if God foreknew.

  I figured that this would be brought up. But this just doesn't hold up to logic. Just by knowing what will happen, that doesn't mean that we can prevent or cause something to happen. The sun will rise tomorrow. I know that. But I am not causing it to rise, nor am I preventing it from rising. If I put a bowl of vegetables and a bowl of ice cream in front of my child, I know which one they are going to choose. My knowing that does not prevent them the free will of making the choice.

  It's the same with God. His knowing what we are going to do/choose doesn't mean that we don't have the freedom to do something else. It simply means that God knows what we will CHOOSE to do ahead of time. Knowing is not controlling.

  Part of the issue has to do with time. If the past and the future exist for God just as the present does, the God is consistently in all places at all times and is not restricted by time. God is not subject to time. God is not a linear entity. If God is not restricted to existence in the present, then the future is known by God because God indwells the future as well as the present and the past. This would mean that our future choices, as free as they are, are simply known by God.

  Part of the WT problem scripturally is restricting God to the present. His existence is defined in such a way as to imply that time is part of His nature and that He is restricted by it.

  There is no logical reason to claim that if God knows what choices we are going to make that it means we are not free. It still means that the free choices we will make are free -- they are just known ahead of time by God. If we choose something different, then that choice will have been eternally known by God. This knowledge by God does not alter our nature in that it does not change what we are -- free to make choices. God's knowledge is necessarily complete and exhaustive because that is His nature, to know all things.
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  NewChapter

  Then I suppose that those that become Christian, but then become not-Christian are just fooling themselves and God never really took them seriously because he saw all outcomes. What a waste of effort. LOL So they weren't REAL Christians.

  I think that Christ Alone would conclude that I was never a REAL Christian---regardless of my experience. Just. Say. It.
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  Christ Alone

  You are thinking of the theory of middle knowledge as per WLC, yes?

  Yeah, the Molinist approach is pretty much my view. It answers all the difficulties I've always had with Calvinism. I enjoy reading Calvin, but when he gets to limited atonement, that's where I begin to differ.

  However, the WT approach is much different. There are things that God chooses not to know. He chose not to know if Adam and Eve would sin in the garden. He chooses not to know which of us will be saved and which will not.
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  PSacramento

  So you are saying that those that were and now are not were a lesser degree of Christian than those that remain?

  You keep asking me to make that call when the whole point of my argument is that I or any other beleiver CAN'T make that call.
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  Christ Alone

  I think that Christ Alone would conclude that I was never a REAL Christian---regardless of my experience. Just. Say. It.

  Nope. I can't say it. For a few reasons:

  1. As hard as it is for you to believe, you may one day go back. Who knows?

  2. I could be wrong in my understanding of any/all doctrines

  3. I didn't know you as a Christian. And my knowing you as an atheist has shown me a deeply thinking, genuine, kind person that I highly respect. I don't put doctrine over relationships.

  4. I have no idea what God's plan is and if we've even got a fraction of what we believe right. How can I put myself up and say that I am so right that I can judge anothers salvation, morality, understandings, etc...

  I CAN read scripture, attempt to understand it, and teach others about what I believe them to mean. But I can't judge anyone. I can't (and won't) tell someone that they will not be saved, go to hell, die forever, etc etc etc.
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  NewChapter

  You keep asking me to make that call when the whole point of my argument is that I or any other beleiver CAN'T make that call.

  Because you have never answered any of my questions about degrees. So I keep trying to ask it from many different angles to draw an answer out. In doing so, I have to take some guesses as to what you mean, and perhaps get my answer by the process of elimination.

  You said that there are degrees of Christians. I don't think you have thought that out, so I'm asking for particulars. Yet you won't respond to the question. I don't know why, because you seemed pretty sure of it. There should be no problem explaining it.