I Want Proof Jesus Even Existed

by Farkel 199 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Farkel

  transhuman68 (why cannot people get simple names on this board?)

  You said:

  :Main article: Tacitus on Christ

  :In his Annals, in book 15, chapter 44, written c. 116 AD, there is a passage which refers to Christ, to Pontius Pilate, and to a mass execution of the Christians after a six-day fire that burned much of Rome in July 64 AD byNero. [30]

  I asked for eyewitnesses, not people who wrote about it 70 years later. That would be 3 generations later and that would not qualify as "eyewitnesses."

  Farkel
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  Farkel

  The rest of you are either trying to hijack this thread with your own bullshit or evading the topic that I started.

  I see NO genuine evidence that Jesus even existed, and I didn't even ask anyone to produce evidence that he did all those miracles that his followers waited 30 to 50 years to write about.

  Talk about bullshit...

  Farkel
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  mP

  MP -> P:

  Thank you for a sensible proper answer, with less emotion and real content, which gives me a chance to try and answer.

  P:

  The Bible Unearthed, Israel Finkelstein

  mP:

  Ive read this book and it focus primarily on the grand origins of the OT particularly the legendary characters like Moses, Joshua, King David and King Solomon, because logic would dictate that their accomplishments would leave archeological evidence. IF is a great archeologist, from my simple observations, he looks and thinks rather than repeat what we have learnt from Bible tradition.
  
  I dont recall any mention of Jesus if any in this book.

  P:

  Who Wrote the Bible, Richard Friedman

  mP:

  Ive read this book and it honestly cant recall it mentions Jesus. If it did it cant be for more than a line. I do however recall it focuses and goes into much detail about the origins of the peoples and their customs and how paganism is very much a part of the evolution of the Israeli god system. This is however a great book, which highlights just how much is lost in the stories from the OT simply because we dont get the full story. Translators never translate for example the names of the characters and places, nor do they tell us what individual items are. Know the names, and what the items are and the story is very different.

  ...more...
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  mP

  Pistoff:

  Misquoting Jesus, Bart Ehrman

  MP:

  Ive read quite a few of Barts books including the one you mention and his latest about whether Jesus existed.

  Before i continue let me just say i felt that analysis was poor because he spent far too much time telling us about what scholars think rather than showing what scholars base their thinking on. COuld it be that the evidence is so poor its an embarrassment to show ? WHy does he spend practically no time on the non biblican evidence from Tacitcus, Pliny, Josephus Or Seutonius. When one examines them its easy to understand why.

  But dont believe me, watch the vid and see how he researched his book.

  http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/did-bart-ehrman-read-the-books/

  Then on the broadcast of April 16, 2012, http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/21906896 he says about 29 minutes in:

  Now he defends his not having read them because it has got out that he had his graduate students read the books and report to him. Well, he says, “Oh, that’s common procedure.” Bullgeschichte! If I assigned a paper and found that a student had had his team of people do the research for him he’d get an F. You can’t pretend to evaluate complex scholarly works based on the Monarch Notes provided by your students. . . . Well he had them to show him the parts of the books he needed to read. Well I’m sorry but you’ve got to read my whole damn book if you’re going to evaluate it as I would read all of yours. You can’t leave it to other people. It’s disgraceful, really, really disgusting. This guy is sinking in my estimation to the level of William Lane Craig.

  Not Barts finest moment. Im not sure i would believe just his feelings. I am particularly concerned why he fails to investigate all other aspects of facts we assume are true, like the stories of xian martyrdom.

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  mP

  Pistoff:

  Still, there was (IMO) likely something about the followers of Jesus that blindsided Paul; it isn't logical to me that it came from a total vacuum. Once Paul enters the picture, the mythbuilding really begins, in my opinion; Paul elevates Jesus to messianic level.

  mP:

  Im sorry this is just too easy to counter. Show me that Paul knows anything about Jesus.

  At no stage does he mention anything that relates to Jesus earthly life. No Jersualem, Bethlehem, Mary, virgin birth, Joseph, 12 apostles, Galilee, miracle, incident in the temple, ressurrection etc nothing. The only thing Paul ever repeats, is Jesus was our saviour and thats about it. He does mention James the brother of the Lord and Cephas i think in Gal and thats it. This has been covered and was ,mentioned by Leo in a previous thread here. No one else managed to show anything more definitive.

  THis of course leads to a simple question is Paul really talking about "OUR" Jesus.

  If you try and reconstruct what Jesus did and taught from just Pauls writings you nothing. Of course if you wish to correct me, please do. I will state however that xians perhaps including yourself simply assume that Paul knew Jesus. Examien the proofs from the Bible and you might be surprised you find a completely different picture.
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  mP

  Pistoff:

  i have not read the remainder of your books, but have read others. Im not claiming im more or less qualified than yourself,, all im suggesting is we look at whats available as proof and then ask critically some questions. THis is why i ask for and provide citations, so anyone can read or ignore what i have to say. If im wrong show me,...

  Xianity is filled with dishonesty and fabircation.

  Everybody likes to think that there were lots of xians in the first century and that the Romans persecuted them. THey of course can never explain why a major church father will write the exact opposite and tell us there were almost none. The text below is from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

  http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09736b.htm

  Origen indeed, writing about the year 249, before the edict of Decius , states that the number of those put to death for the Christian religion was not very great, but he probably means that the number of martyrs up to this time was small when compared with the entire number of Christians (cf. Allard , "Ten Lectures on the Martyrs", 128)

  ...

  This of course leads me to ask more questions...just how much of our modern perception of early xianity is a lie ?

  I will however concede the Romans did kill thousands of rebellious Jews, xians sorry, there simply is no proof. In fact if it were an absolute truth, Origen would never say the above. He was there the contradictions are troublesome.

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  mP

  Pistoff:

  Notwithstanding what any of us here think of Jesus, in the US the Christians have the microphone, don't they? And it is becoming more and more problematic as the body of believers shift to fundamentalism, the belief in Jesus exactly and literally as the gospels depict him.

  That is too bad; it is so easy to show it isn't true, and it suppresses the discussion I think we should be having: religion as an exploration of ethics and community, and whether or not it is time to try to move on, either to openly discuss the myth (myth not in a negative sense, but as a sense of story and place, how we see the past, present and future) or to discuss ethics and morality without religion.

  mP:

  I dont live in the USA, i never watch christian television. However their hypocracy and utter bullshit are not really related at all to any discussion about whether Jesus existed either way.
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  mP

  Pistoff:

  "Crossan suggests Jesus was an illiterate "Jewish Cynic" from a landless peasant background, initially a follower of John the Baptist. [citation needed] Jesus was a healer and man of great wisdom and courage who taught a message of inclusiveness, tolerance, and liberation. "His strategy . . . was the combination of free healing and common eating . . . that negated the hierarchical and patronal normalcies of Jewish religion and Roman power . . . He was neither broker nor mediator but . . . the announcer that neither should exist between humanity and divinity or humanity and itself." [6]

  Out of his study of cross-attestation and strata of the ancient texts, Crossan asserts that many of the gospel stories of Jesus are not factual, including his "nature miracles", the virgin birth, and the raising of Lazarus. [citation needed] While pointing out the meager attestation and apparent belatedness of the miracles' appearance in the trajectory of the canon, Crossan takes the opposite view, that Jesus was known during earliest Christianity as a powerful magician, which was "a very problematic and controversial phenomenon not only for his enemies but even for his friends," who began washing miracles out of the tradition early on. [citation needed]

  Crossan maintains the Gospels were never intended to be taken literally by their authors. [citation needed] He argues that the meaning of the story is the real issue, not whether a particular story about Jesus is history or parable. [citation needed] He proposes that it is historically probable that, like all but one known victim of crucifixion, Jesus' body was scavenged by animals rather than being placed in a tomb. [7] Crossan believes in vision hypothesis "resurrection" by faith but holds that bodily resuscitation was never contemplated by early Christians. [citation needed] He believes that the rapture is based on a misreading of I Thessalonians 4:16-18. [citation needed]")

  mP:

  I appreciate that you are giving a very brief summary that obviously leaves out a lot of other details. However you do use the word "believes" and other similar statements which makes me want to ask is this all hunches because i dont see the proofs. I see a man trying to think rather than know about the past.

  Back to my statements, i dont see any of these comments presented as incompatible that the Romans did not invent Jesus. Josiah did it why not the Romans ?
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  mP

  Farkel:

  The rest of you are either trying to hijack this thread with your own bullshit or evading the topic that I started.

  I see NO genuine evidence that Jesus even existed, and I didn't even ask anyone to produce evidence that he did all those miracles that his followers waited 30 to 50 years to write about.

  Talk about bullshit...

  mP:

  What do you think about my Romans did it evidence ? Make sense ? Motivation, evidence ?
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  mP

  Pistoff:

  "Crossan suggests Jesus was an illiterate "Jewish Cynic " from a landless peasant background, initially a follower of John the Baptist . [citation needed] Jesus was a healer and man of great wisdom and courage who taught a message of inclusiveness, tolerance, and liberation. "His strategy . . . was the combination of free healing and common eating . . . that negated the hierarchical and patronal normalcies of Jewish religion and Roman power . . .

  mP:

  Im sorry originally i was going to ignore this, but the last portion of the quote is utter bullshit. Jesus never said anything that was disadvantageous to the Roman government or their selfih motivations. Jesus said a lot of things, but he never said anything against the Romans. He did however say many things numerous times that would be a benefit to them. He encouraged peace, cooperation, tax payment, obedience and more. He never said a single thing that would be a problem for the Romans. If all the jews listened to Jesus, Rome would have no problems in Judea. They would be good little tax payers waiting for a kingdom that would never come.

  The jews back then refused to eat with gentiles. They were trying to accomplish the eequivalent of the apartheid system in South Africa. One can see that this environment mixed with religious and violent fanaticism was very unhealthy for the peace of Judea. Read your history and you will find the Jews were like this in many other places throughout the empire. Wiki has numerous articles to get you statrted.