by Farkel 199 Replies latest watchtower bible
Leo:
No I'm being perfectly fair. This is precisely the point I'm making about Atwill. Lots of people were named Jesus, lots of totally unrelated people. So you can't just use the name as the basis for combining or linking totally unrelated Jesuses together.
mP:
Im confused how this somehow weakens any part of the argument. Please compelte the idea with examples.
Leo:
Why is it implausible that some Flavians (which was not just a family but a gens ) converted to Christianity? The church at Rome was huge. The two you mentioned (Titus Flavius Clemens and Flavia Domitilla) were husband and wife. Dio Cassius wrote about them:
"Domitian slew, along with many others, Flavius Clemens the consul, although he was a cousin and married to Flavia Domitilla, who was also a relative of the emperor's. The charge brought against them both was that of atheism ( atheotès ), a charge on which many others who drifted into Jewish ways were condemned. Some of these were put to death, and the rest were at least deprived of their property. Domitilla was merely banished to Pandateria".
MP:
What proof have you got the church was huge ? Can you show me a reference to an archeological site in Rome of considerable size. If there were that many surely they would have found many by now. Your text about DC, doesnt say there were many xians in Rome. It only talks about FC and FD. It also does not mention Jesus or Xians. What group is DC actually talking about ?
MP:You have failed to show a single scripture from Mt, Mk, Lu or Jo that is completely flawed in the parallels of Titus campaign.
Leo:
I mentioned a few examples of claimed parallels that are dubious, that pale in comparison to real parallels, that are the kind that one could easily find between two stories if one stretches things far enough and cherry picks things as parallels that don't necessarily make much internal sense. Doesn't meet the especially high burden of proof that the thesis demands.
MP:
Researching Titus campaign and path, battles and so on are in the public domain and relatively easy to access. Again you continue to state the thesis is wrong and yet you cant provide a single example, just lots of personal commentary.
Leo:
And you have completely ignored my attempt to show that the eschatological expectation in the synoptics was that the era of Roman rule was coming to an end.
mP:
Im sorry i did not ignore the jewish expectations. TO keep things simple i will agree that the Jews were expecting a violent military Messiah to liberate them from the Romans completely. The fact that Jesus preached submission that rather than liberation they must be peaceful and cooperate is precisely the point of the Jesus creation.
Said was very much incompatible with expections and did have different ideas, but they fit if you try and think of Roman motivations.
mp_>Leo:
Its sad that you waste close to 40% of your reply about Moby Dick. Pathetic even, BP and all that.
I expected an honest approach to the challenge instead of stupid jokes. Your entire large second response is of course mostly off topic and stupid. 90% is not even about the gospels.
Leo:
Funny then how "the poor" was the focus of so much of the gospel in the synoptics, and how the early Christian movement created a community that prioritized the poor.
mP:
Of course jesus was a champion of the poor. Thats why he told them to be faithful slaves an pay taxes. Amazingly he never spoke against slavery. How exactly is that a champion of the poor ?
What proofs have you got that early xians helped the poor ? Except for tricks which never happened he did nothing. Everyone recalls the example where Jesus takes the expensive oil and has it poured upon his head, rather than selling it and giving to the poor. Yup the gospels are full of charity.
Show me some examples outside the bible.
Leo:
Someone should have clued Tacitus in on this massive conspiracy to fabricate Christianity. He stupidly thought that "Judea was the origin of this evil destructive superstition" and although "repressed", it "erupted again through the city of Rome where all that is horrible and shameful floods together and is celebrated". Silly Tacitus, the Flavians didn't repress it, they CREATED it -- not in Judea but in Rome! Right under your nose!
MP:
Show the full quote. Its easy to verify the Jews were all over the empire. As i have shown they also had massive rebellions in Cyrene, Libya for example. Jews and xians were interchangable in the first century texts. There are pletny of non biblical proofs for jewish communities throughout the empire, and yet there are none for xians.
If you assert that there were xians in the 1st century show me...
Leo:
Cart before the horse. There's no substantive evidence that the Romans did this at all. I don't have to show it's impossible at all; the burden is on those making the claim that it did happen.
mP:
Fair comment but define what proof you require.
Leo:
Misplaced burden of proof.
I didn't say it was impossible. I said that it is so implausible that to think it happened that way is to disregard most of what we know about the NT. History is about assessing the preponderance of evidence and likelihoods.
mP:
I presented but a few simple thoughts that show why the Romans would want to invent a peaceful messiah. You habe made a sweeping statement, which i have no idea where to begin in any reply. Make it simple break down your reply so i can attempt ot answer.
Not quite, your comments are abit premature. Have you actually read my previous posts ? Probably not.
And this is why you got utterly destroyed. You are arguing against your assumptions.
Yes. I did. But hey, the ass umption I didn't only affected you, so I am not worried about it.
