need your advice again, please

by outsmartthesystem 65 Replies latest jw friends

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    yknot said:

    Outsmart....

    As a Sister.... I start to hear menfolk talk 607 and my eyes roll back in my head.....

    Pick a different subject.....one that is 'Sister friendly'

    Really we don't care about 607 as a gender (well majority of us)

    Yup, the quibbling about technical inaccuracies and miscalculations is compelling only to the engineering types who have pocket protectors and protractors.

    Instead, you'd be better off focusing on issues of the heart, the policies that are cruel, harmful, the missed dates of Doomsday (1914, 1975: not HOW they arrived at them, but the FACT they failed) etc, new light, etc.

    The thesis approach is not going to convince Bethel (they already know it's ALL BS: they probably get 100's of such letters each day!) or her (as stated above). Remember who you're trying to convince here, your wife, and your wife alone.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    You are being a bit impatient. She's been a cult member for how long???? You, with no training in a related branch of psychology, have been trying to get her out for how long???

    "I won't answer that. I don't owe you anything. You won't talk to the elders and you won't send a letter to Bethel so it is clear that you know you are wrong and are only trying to ruin my faith".


    Finding a good question just the beginning. When you ask a cult member a question, you have to do it in a way that makes them feel like they have to provide you with an answer. Until you understand how to do that, you are better off to shut up, because everything you do just helps them build the wall.


    My wife has told me that she will only take me seriously if I take the plunge and write to NY or talk to an elder.


    Don't fall for it. 1) It's just an excuse for her not answering your questions. 2) If you don't make do with whatever weasel non-answer you receive, she still won't take you seriously.


    Get to the library and get books to teach your family critical thinking skills, so that they can have the tools to work out that the WT is full of BS without your help.
  • neverscreamagain
    neverscreamagain

    Has the option of getting Professional counseling been considered?

    As an armchair observer of your family dynamic, it seems to be quite adversarial, and perhaps by both parties.

    Speaking from personal experience, you will not win in this situation where you are cast as the bad guy. The Borg supplies all the "answers" as to your motives in questioning anything.

    Your motives need to be proved to her as having her and your children's best welfare at heart.

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    I guess I'm with yknot. Unless you're prepared for the marriage to end, back away from her. She's already proven that she has no answers and isn't prepared to really start thinking. Wasn't there already something in a KM or somewhere that the society already told the sheeple to stop sending letters and questions to the branch because they're "too busy"? And the elders are way too dumb to begin answering any of your questions. Personally, I've done very limited conversations with elders and COs, just enough so that I can tell my parents, "they are a dry well. No knowledge to be gained from them."

    Toward your wife and kids, I'd suggest that you not come across as "bad dad" that makes things stressful and wants to take away their imaginary pet tigers. Instead, look for fun activities that you can do together and create happy memories. I'd also suggest that you spend more time bonding with your fading family. They'll understand you and your situation far better than I do. They might be in a good position to help.

  • jamiebowers
    jamiebowers

    You asked for opinions, so here goes! The first thing I think you should do is consult a very good divorce and child custody attorney who is either willing to learn about or able to handle jw issues just to have her/him at the ready in case the worst happens. Second, start exposing your kids to crirical thinking skills and the real world NOW! Third, reiterate to your wife how her social standing will be ruined if/when you're df'd and ask her to compare you being shunned with how her father was treated by her grandfather. Then review the questions that you have with her. Fourth, send them to the elders and not the Watch Tower, so you'll be following the chain of command.

    Then let the chips fall where they may. If she divorces you for doing exactly what she wanted you to do, then fight her tooth and nail for at least joint custody with you having decision making ability for educational and medical issues for your kids. Try to stay as calm and reasonable as possible throughout this process, so the kids don't become afraid of you. If it comes to all that, there are attorneys and counselors who can be provided for the children, and orders can be written into the divorce/custody agreements that forbid your wife to trash you for your df'd state.

  • Aware!
    Aware!

    This reminds me of my mom when I ask her questions about the Society's unscriptural practices (i.e, time slip, beards, etc.) and tell her they are going beyond what is written. She closes her mind, goes into cult mode, and changes the subject. I have not blown it with anyone and have only asked questions. My questions are always sincere and the brothers know I'm a bookworm. Don't make it too obvious and don't be hasty.

  • Aware!
    Aware!

    How long did it take YOU to learn TTATT? It was probably gradual. Appeal to her emotions and not logic. For now, let it rest for two or three weeks. Don't sound or look desperate. Always speak in a calmly manner. Maybe you should have your kids join a sports club or rec league outside of school, and if they're not into sports, then maybe music lessons. I've always wanted to take piano lessons when I was a kid.

  • Scully
    Scully

    Doesn't it bother your wife that women within the JWs are basically regarded as second class citizens?

    Surely she realizes that she's got more brains in her pinky toe than most of the Elders™ she knows?

    That is an angle that will appeal to her intellect, and it could rekindle her affections for you, if you support her growth as a spiritual person by asking her to help you research things.

    Does she like to read? If she likes historical type novels, give her The Red Tent by Anita Diamant. It's the story of Jacob's daughter Dinah, written from her female perspective. It was one of the first novels I read when I was freshly out of the JWs, and it presented an alternate viewpoint considering the stories in the Bible were all male-centric.

    Try to do some things with her - first on non-Meeting™ nights and then gradually introduce events on Meeting™ nights - that she's always wanted to do as a couple. Maybe take a cooking class or a wine making class together or ball room dancing. If she likes going to movies have her choose a movie that she likes one week and you choose one that she will like the next week. Find a nice park in your area and go for a picnic with her and the children. Go to a child-oriented museum. Really focus on your relationship as a couple and family togetherness. I can't stress enough how important it is to slip positive non-JW activities into your life NOW. The JWs will react with shock and horror that you aren't spending every waking moment studying your Watchtowers and going Door-to-Door™, and will start gossiping about your Worldly™ activities. Your wife will feel conflicted, because she knows that there's nothing wrong with those activities, and they will have a positive effect on your relationship and your family, while the Meetings™ and Field Service™ will only create tension and the feeling of being burdened. That's one thing that helped Mr Scully wake up and smell the coffee when I was ready to quit and he wasn't.

    Slow down. Armageddon™ isn't coming. There's no rush to get her out immediately.

  • outsmartthesystem
    outsmartthesystem

    "Have your wife preview the questions you send it and get her agreement that they are important and that your tone is respectful.

    Otherwise, when they don't answer she'll assume it was YOUR fault instead of theirs."

    That's a good point. I should go back through and make sure the entire tone of the research and questions sounds like that of a lost sheep

    "How about 1914.....when did we start preaching 1914 as enthronment vs parousia? Holy Spirit, when was it removed and returned?

    or....

    Tell her how much you love her and want family happiness......suggest a trade off studying current WTs for her and you doing a 'couple's study' begining with Russell/Barbour......work your way through Rutherford..... I would be surprised if she made it to 1975 without waking up...."

    This is what frustrates me so. I've heard of countless others taking such an approach and allowing the other person to wake up on their own. But she will not do this. She refuses to study old material because I believe that in her heart she knows what she'll find. Instead she says "the light gets brighter for a reason. It's Jehovah's plan. Old material is no longer what is being served by the FDS, so insisting on studying it is just like insisting on eating old food. Only a stubborn person who is looking for trouble would do that." She is perfectly content to read a modern publication that simply says "in the early 20th century, was serving food at the proper time". In terms of a trade-off......again, she won't budge. She will only study what the newer publications have to say about Russell and Rutherford. Even if you were to get her to review a couple of older articles (which I have succeeded with a while back) she will simply put it down and say "it's ok because they were imperfect. Jehovah was still using them."

  • outsmartthesystem
    outsmartthesystem

    "Finding a good question just the beginning. When you ask a cult member a question, you have to do it in a way that makes them feel like they have to provide you with an answer. Until you understand how to do that, you are better off to shut up, because everything you do just helps them build the wall."

    But how do I do that? Any thought provoking question I ask is met with the same answer. "if YOU want to know the answer then YOU look it up. I don't need to because I know I have the truth."


    "Get to the library and get books to teach your family critical thinking skills, so that they can have the tools to work out that the WT is full of BS without your help."

    Thank you. I've just ordered the book "Teach Your Children How to Think"

    "Has the option of getting Professional counseling been considered?"

    Yes. I've asked her over and over again. She refuses. I am the only one with a problem....and that problem is a spiritual one that cannot be fixed by psychiatry.......it can only be fixed with the holy spirit.

    "Your motives need to be proved to her as having her and your children's best welfare at heart."

    I know I got off on the wrong foot over a year ago.....and I was stupid about it. She lead me to believe that if I found anything that suggests that the society is not directed by God......she'd be the first in line to hear about it. I believed her. I look back and realize that she was just saying that because she truly thought I'd find nothing and come crawling back to the organization. When I actually presented facts.....her attitude changed and the shield went up. Ever since then she thinks I've just nitpicked. How do I convince her that I have her and my childrens' best interests at heart?

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit