Questions From Thinkers

by Perry 186 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • simon17
    simon17

    How do you explain David's graphic portrayal of Jesus' death by crucifixion (Psalm 22) 1000 years before Christ lived?

    This is very unconvincing. Much of what is in the chapter is very non-specific and could be applied to thousands of victims of crucification or other sorts of executions through the years. It is not clear if much of the chapter is literal or figurative even.About the only bit of specific unusual information (the casting lots of the garments) could have been simply recorded ficitionally for Jesus' case, or potentially even arranged by followers. Certainly this is very far from any sort of convincing proof of Jesus divinity.

    How do you account for the odds (1 in 10 to the 157th power) that even just 48 (of 300) Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus Christ?

    Lets assume for a moment that these prophecies actually were fulfilled. Before that assumption note it is a terrible one. Many of the prophecies are absurdly ambiguous. The fulfillments are completely unverifiable, in many cases being "recorded" by non-eye witnesses decades after they happened!

    Ok, that assumption aside, how in the world do assign probabilities to some of these prophecies. What is the probability of being pierced, for example? How do you account for the conditional probabilities? The probability of a person being a Jew is small. The probability of being a Jew given they fulfilled the prophecy of being being born in Bethlehem is 100%. Add to that the fact that a so-called Messiah would be aware of some of the mroe obvious prophecies and he and his followers would be readily be able to arrange for some of the prophecies to be fulfilled. So the probabilities are absurd to say you can "calculate" them in any meaningful way.

    In what sense was Jesus a "good man" if He was lying in His claim to be God?

    An irrelevant question. Speaking to ex-JWs you should know many people here never believed the Bible claims he did claim to be God. Philosophically, people lie to themselves all the time: that doesn't mean they are not sincere in misbelief or inelligible to be considered "good".

    If Jesus' resurrection was faked, why would twelve intelligent men (Jesus' disciples) have died for what they knew to be a lie?

    If fundamentalist Islam is not the truth, why would 19 hi-jackers give their life to its cause on September 11th?

    How can something as small as a brain understand extremely complicated aspects of the universe, even though it is (supposedly) just a bunch of chemical reactions and electrical signals? But at the same time, this brain can’t create another brain like itself, so how can nature, that has no brain, create a brain?

    Well we know how that works, don't we? How can nature create stars and galaxies and other massively impressive things in the universe. Science will pretty much tell you how it is done. How can something infnitely more complicated than a brain, have no creator (a more difficult question than your relatively simple brain being created by nothing btw).

    Why can't this brain even create a simple living twig?

    Who says a simple living twig is simple?

    Why is the simple cell likened to the complexity of large functioning city by experts?

    Same as above.

    Is it absolutely true that "truth is not absolute" or only relatively true that "all things are relative?"

    Not really relevant.

    What do you say about the hundreds of scholarly books that carefully document the veracity and reliability of the Bible?

    What books and which parts of the Bible. The Bible has many aspects and people who are historical, which are then mixed with unverifiable events and people and events that are verifiably false. For example, list the scholarly / scientific books that document the veracity of the flood.

    Have you ever considered the fact that Christianity is the only religion whose leader is said to have risen from the dead?

    Have you ever considered that Islam is the only religion whose primary prophet flew to heaven on a winged steed?

    Why don't non-believers refer to Jesus as the late Jesus Christ?

    There is no such thing as a stupid question. But some questions are close.

    If the authorities stole Jesus' body, why?

    *IF*. Not verifiable at all.

    Why would they have perpetrated the very scenario that they most wanted to prevent?

    See above. BTW, I dont' see stealing Jesus body as all that unusual anyway. People took relics very seriously then and perhaps they didn't want his tomb becoming a rallying point of a movement. Last person I remember authorities esentially doing this to was Osama Bin Laden.

    If Jesus merely resuscitated in the tomb, how did He deal with the Roman guard posted just outside its entrance?

    Not verifiable or really relevant.

    How can one realistically discount the testimony of over 500 witnesses to a living Jesus following His crucifixion (see 1 Corinthians 15:6)?

    Someone writing that there were eyewitnesses does not mean there were. There are 500 eyewitnesses in my office right now who have seen me turn my printer into gold. Care to believe that too?

    What do you make of all the anthropological studies indicating that even the most remote tribes show some sort of theological awareness?

    Mankind has created religions where-ever they have gone. Guess how many of those religions its adherents believe to be false?

    If every effect has a cause, then what or who caused the universe?

    An excellent scientific question that scientists are working on right now. Just like ancient questions like "why does the sun rise every morning" or "why does the earth tremble sometimes" or "what causes a rainbow", one day we can assuredly have the answers.

    How do you explain the thousands of people who have experienced heaven or hell and have come back to tell us about it?

    Yes, every religion in the world has people with experiences that prove their religion. No one in India or China sees the Virgin Mary though. No one in Brazil feels they were reincarnated. Its amazing how segmented these experiences are. You know what "other-worldly" experience is common throughout the world? Seeing or being abducted by aliens. Yea, people are uniformly crazy.

    How do you explain the cosmological constant?

    The Anthropic Principle

    Is it wrong to ask such questions? Why?

    It is wrong only if you have predetermined that your desired answers to them are correct.

  • corpusdei
    corpusdei

    Part the First

    I'd like to answer the last one first, if you don't mind.

    Is it wrong to ask such questions? Why?

    Absolutely NOT! It isn't wrong by any means, in fact I heartily encourage you to do so. Ask the next question, then ask the next, then the next. Use your powers of reason, investigate the answer, test its internal logic. What so often happens is that people don't ask these questions, relying instead on the "Well, God musta done it" answer for everything. Keep asking questions, but don't be afraid to let the answer bring you to a better understanding of the world around you.

    - How do you explain David's graphic portrayal of Jesus' death by crucifixion (Psalm 22) 1000 years before Christ lived?
    - How do you account for the odds (1 in 10 to the 157th power) that even just 48 (of 300) Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus Christ?
    - In what sense was Jesus a "good man" if He was lying in His claim to be God?If Jesus' resurrection was faked, why would twelve intelligent men (Jesus' disciples) have died for what they knew to be a lie?
    - If the authorities stole Jesus' body, why? Why would they have perpetrated the very scenario that they most wanted to prevent?
    - If Jesus merely resuscitated in the tomb, how did He deal with the Roman guard posted just outside its entrance?
    - How can one realistically discount the testimony of over 500 witnesses to a living Jesus following His crucifixion (see 1 Corinthians 15:6)?

    I'm lumping these together because there are a couple of assumptions going on here that should be considered. First off is that the accounts of the fulfillment of prophesy as we read them today occurred exactly as described. Second, and more significantly, there's the assumption that the prophesies themselves as we read them today are exactly the same as when they were originally made.

    Did you ever play the telephone game as a kid in school? Where you get all the kids together in a circle, whisper a phrase in the ear of the first one who turns around and whispers it in the ear of the next, and so on? By the time you get to the end of the circle, the end phrase is never what it originally was. Usually it's never even remotely close. Consider the fact that that level of perceptual distortion happens in the space of six or seven minutes, and then think about the bible. (Here's another experiment that you can try yourself - pick a phrase, go to babelfish and translate it from English to Spanish to German to French and then back to English. See if it reads the same.)

    The bible as we have it isn't from the original texts. It's not even from a copy of the original texts. It's from a copy of a copy of a copy of a translation of a copy of a translation (etc). More than that, in the vast majority of cases, these copies and translations were done by those with a vested interest in maintaining the integrity of the religion (which is not the same as maintaining the integrity of the text, make no mistake about it).

    Does that mean than I consider the entire bible a fabrication? Not necessarily, I believe that there's a seed of truth in some of the accounts. I do not, however, consider it an infallible, accurate historical record. I encourage you to consider why you don't believe that the universe was created from a golden egg hatched by Nyx, or plowed and fertilized by Enki (read the myths and you'll understand why I chuckled at that last bit). When you understand that then you'll be a step closer to understanding why I view the bible with the same skepticism.

  • corpusdei
    corpusdei

    Part the Second

    - How can something as small as a brain understand extremely complicated aspects of the universe, even though it is (supposedly) just a bunch of chemical reactions and electrical signals?
    - But at the same time, this brain can’t create another brain like itself, so how can nature, that has no brain, create a brain?
    - Why can't this brain even create a simple living twig?Why is the simple cell likened to the complexity of large functioning city by experts?

    This is one of those items that folks love to pop out when it comes to talking to atheists or skeptics, and it boils down to: "Look at this immense complexity, it proves that there's a designer!". Again, there's an assumption here that I feel a powerful need to point out. Opponents of evolution (and the biological complexity resulting from it) rarely seem to have a full grasp of what they're so opposed to. It's easy to look at the world and see it as a static thing, the world as we live in seems so unchangeable that the idea of a monkey evolving into man is ridiculous.

    Here's a nifty, not so useless fact - did you know that the cauliflower as we know it didn't exist 300 years ago? Or that the strawberries you buy at the grocery store never originally existed in nature? These plants as we know them today are the result of intentional selective adaptation - turning a type of cabbage into a cauliflower, or breeding only those strains of strawberries that produce the largest berries. Another example - your average housecat is very ill-equipped to survive as a natural predator (no matter what kitty may think). Compared to wild (non-domesticated) cats, their jaws are too narrow and their immune systems aren't as capable. Again, these are changes brought about through intentional, selective adaptation by humans. Natural selection and adaptation occurs in much the same way, except that instead of humans guiding it, it's driven by the environment and the need for survival.

    Now, we can see that amount of change in less than 1000 years of human history. What happens when you expand the timeline? Not 10,000 years, or even 1,000,000. Earth has existed for around 4.5 billion years. In that massive, near-incomprehensible span of time, the changes will be even more extravagant. The incredible complexity that we see in the world and in ourselves is a result of 4 and a half billion years of the most adaptable (and increasingly complex) life surviving.

  • corpusdei
    corpusdei

    Part the Third

    Is it absolutely true that "truth is not absolute" or only relatively true that "all things are relative?"

    Huh?

    What do you say about the hundreds of scholarly books that carefully document the veracity and reliability of the Bible?

    That the majority of the ones I've ever read seem to base their reliability on either unreliable sources or unreliable reasoning. Again, I don't consider the entire work to be fiction, but I don't count it any more historically accurate than any other religious text.

    Have you ever considered the fact that Christianity is the only religion whose leader is said to have risen from the dead?

    Um...... I can actually think of several right off the top of my head - Osiris (Egyptian), Shiva (Hindu), Odin (Norse), Inana (Sumerian). Give me awhile, I'm sure I can think of a few more.

    Why don't non-believers refer to Jesus as the late Jesus Christ?

    In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary, come again?

    What do you make of all the anthropological studies indicating that even the most remote tribes show some sort of theological awareness?

    What do you make of the sociology studies indicating an inverse ratio between IQ and religious belief? That's a serious question, by the way, and not me being snarky. Religion is fundamentally a way to explain the inexplicable. As we learn what actually goes on for something, the need for a divine explanation goes away. Case in point, we know now that lightning is a discharge of static electricity, therefore there's no longer a need to believe that it's the weapon of an angry god.

    If every effect has a cause, then what or who caused the universe?

    There are several theories (in the scientific sense of the word "theory", not in the sense that most people think of it), most of them generally understandable by people with brains much larger than mine and involving rather obscene amounts of math. The most satisfying explanation currently (as I understand it) is the big bang and big crunch, in which the universe cycles between explosion, expansion and collapse to a singularity. The nice men in the lab coats are still finding out new stuff, however, in their annoying insistence on not relying on "Well, God musta done it", so that might change. Stay tuned.

    How do you explain the thousands of people who have experienced heaven or hell and have come back to tell us about it?

    Either a) hysterical invention, b) outright lies, c) electrical misfiring in a brain that's suddenly gone into panic red-alert mode. I consider those accounts generally no more reliable than the guy in the sanitarium covering himself in peanut butter and believing himself to be Napoleon.

    How do you explain the cosmological constant?

    I'm not sure what relevance this question has on theology, and I'd have to dig back into a fair amount of astrophysics to get up to speed on it, but didn't that end up getting worked into dark matter/energy? I'd research this some more, but I frankly don't care enough to bother at this point unless I have to.

  • Perry
    Perry

    What about the thousands of interdependent parts and chemical processes of a single cell? All the parts and functions must be there simutanously in order for it to function. What possible explanation could there be other than design and purpose?

    I'd have to dig back into a fair amount of astrophysics to get up to speed on it, but didn't that end up getting worked into dark matter/energy?

    Not really, though I'm sure its related somehow. Basically, if the math and tolerances of the universe were off by just an infitesimal fraction of one percent, nothing in the material universe could exist.

  • Knowsnothing
    Knowsnothing
    What about the thousands of interdependent parts and chemical processes of a single cell? All the parts and functions must be there simutanously in order for it to function. What possible explanation could there be other than design and purpose?

    What about the interdependent organisms that constitute earth's ecosystems, that are based on predation/parasitism? All the parts and functions must be there simutanously in order for it to function. What possible explanation could there be other than design and purpose?

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    Ahhhh...sweetbaby...you're like a breath of fresh air....good to see ya...

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    All the parts and functions must be there simutanously in order for it to function

    Maybe all the parts performed other functions before they evolved and combined to perform the new ones

  • designs
    designs

    Bingo! Energy to Atoms.

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    Why are you feeding the martyr.

    "DON'T FEED THE MARTYR"

    Read Perry's older stuff. If you believe, fine. If you don't, fine. Same bullsh*t, different day.

    Perry, what bothers me isn't your beliefs (different from facts for us thinkin folk). It is that you want to argue over shit you can't prove.

    Big deal. I mean seriously. You talk about Jesus? Not here. No one has seen him yet.

    You want to justify the claims of a book that is 2000 years old with one that is 3000? We need to get your kids and take them to safety!

    Anyway, carry on. I'm sure my little rant will make you feel more persecuted. That's the point isn't it? Because if you are trying to point where Jesus is, you should try pointing in another direction.

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