One Lord - One Savior : Get Used To It

by Perry 106 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Andrew Sh

  Two tasters from Luther's Preface:-

  "It is very strange to the world to teach Christians to learn to be ignorant of the law and to live before God as if there were no law. Yet unless you are ignorant of the law and convinced in your heart that there is now no law nor wrath of God, but altogether grace and mercy for Christ’s sake, you cannot be saved, for knowledge of sin comes through the law. On the contrary, works and keeping the law must be strictly required in the world, as if there were no promise or grace."

  "Therefore, when I see a person who is bruised enough already being oppressed with the law, terrified with sin, and thirsting for comfort, it is time for me to remove the law and active righteousness from his sight and set before him, by the Gospel, the Christian and passive righteousness. This excludes Moses with his law and offers the promise made in Christ, who came for the afflicted and for sinners. Here we are raised up again and acquire hope; here we are no longer under the law but under grace (see Romans 6:14). How is it that we are not under the law? We live according to the new nature, to which the law does not appertain. As Paul says later on, “Christ is the end of the law” (Romans 10:4); since He has come, Moses ceases with his law, circumcision, sacrifices, Sabbaths, and indeed all the prophets."

  Tootired2care,

  Well, you may be, but I am not, but it is 12:30 in the morning here in the UK and I must go to bed. You will get more from reading Luther's Preface from the link above than from my reply anyway. I hope I can reply tomorrow. But briefly, the saying is "if the cap fits then wear it". we are called sinners in the Bible for good reason! The cap fits, so wear it. We are not condemned because of the sins of our parents, or Adam and Eve's sin, but for our own sins... we willingly sin ourselves. But it is true that speaking of the Jews "God has concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." The same is true of us all. We have all been permitted to go our own way of sin, all we like sheep have gone astray, but the good news is the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6). Take care.
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  designs

  Luther like Paul shows he really did not understand Judaism. Luther says 'you cannot be saved' except by Christ shows he did not understand the Jewish Enlightenment and the concept of 'The Perfectability of Man' that predated Jesus by 4 centuries..

  Denominationalism should be argued as the natural consequence of Luther opening a door to individuality, which was fine, except he didn't like those who came to different conclusions than he did, those dissenters he persecuted.
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  Knowsnothing

  We are not condemned because of the sins of our parents, or Adam and Eve's sin, but for our own sins

  The problem is even little things are sins in God's eyes. Something stupid like petty theft is no different in God's eyes than murder. Sin is sin, according to him, and so all must be sentenced.

  That simply would not hold up in a court. No one in their right mind would give the death penalty to a theif the same as a murderer. Only God get's away with that.
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  botchtowersociety

  One Lord - One Savior : Get Used To It

  Religion is largely an accident of birth, Perry. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or India you would almost certainly not be a Christian.

  So what happens to the 95% of the people who have ever lived who have not been Christians?

  I'd love to finally get your response to this thread:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/192529/1/For-Perry-the-most-distant-known-object-in-the-Universe
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  cofty

  Andrew Sh - I used to believe all of that. Its demeaning and dehumanising. You are not a sinner and neither am I - Get up off your knees and stop grovelling.
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  botchtowersociety
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  Andrew Sh

  "Its dehumanising"

  No, sin is dehumanising - when men want to take away their ability to reason by drunkeness.

  When men will kill for a few pounds.

  When men get a thrill out of injuring, torturing, killing, and will even video their crimes on their mobile phones to send to others.

  These are the things which are dehumanising. Sin makes devils out of humans. Grovelling makes us fully human, because through the mercy that comes from repentance and faith comes joy, and from this comes power against sin, "for the joy of the Lord is your strength" Nehemiah 8:10.

  "You are not a sinner and neither am I."- Cofty

  Cofty,

  To understand these things aright

  This grand distinction should be known:

  Though all are sinners in God's sight

  There are but few so in their own.

  To such as these our Lord was sent, (who feel their sinnership)

  They're only sinners who repent.

  "Get up off your knees and stop grovelling." - Cofty.

  But, Cofty, I LIKE GROVELLING....

  provided I mix it with a true faith in those words of Christ on the cross: "It is finished". The Greek, Tetelestai, means "Paid in full", and refers to a debt being fully paid off. When you have finished paying off the mortgage on a house and it is finally fully paid then the word is "Tetelestai"! If I have faith that Christ has paid the full price for all my sins, then I can grovel with confidence.

  For a sinner to dislike grovelling is as unsuitable as for an owl to dislike or be afraid of the dark:

  Grovelling is honest and reasonable, for what else should a sinner do? Deny he is a sinner? That is dishonest, a pretence, a facade.

  Grovelling is safe: I am told that when a hurricane or tornado strikes the safest place is to keep as low to the ground as possible.. to lie prostrate on the ground. God's power is far above that of a tornado, and He asks us to humble ourselves, to repent of sin, to turn back to Him, and to believe on the Saviour for the forgivenesss of sins.

  Grovelling brings fellowship with God: for how "can two walk together unless they be agreed?" (Amos 3:3). God's word says I am a sinner, so I cannot walk with God unless I agree with Him about this.

  Grovelling brings joy. Yes, it does, and much joy, when mixed with faith in Christ's blood. No other joy like this joy: A full joy, a real joy, a joy needing no repentance, an eternal joy. Before I was converted repentance and grovelling were horrible, ugly words; now they are comforting, sweet, happy words. The bee even gets honey out of plants that sting.

  Everyone will grovel sooner or later: the grovelling now (with faith in Christ's sacrifice) will bring God's mercy; the grovelling on the day of judgement will be far too late.

  1. When Adam by transgression fell, and conscious, fled his Maker’s face,

  Linked in clandestine league with hell, He ruined all his future race.

  The seeds of evil once brought in, increased and filled the world with sin.

  2. But lo! The Second Adam came, the serpent’s subtle head to bruise;

  He cancels his malicious claim, and disappoints his devilish views;

  Ransoms poor sinners with His blood, and brings the sinner back to God.

  3. To understand these things aright, this grand distinction should be known:

  Though all are sinners in God’s sight, there are but few so in their own.

  To such as these our Lord was sent; they’re only sinners who repent.

  4. What comfort can a Saviour bring to those who never felt their woe?

  A sinner is a sacred thing; the Holy Ghost hath made him so.

  New life from Him we must receive, before for sin we rightly grieve.

  5. This faithful saying let us own, well worthy ‘tis to be believed,

  That Christ into the world came down, that sinners might by Him be saved.

  Sinners are high in His esteem, and sinners highly value Him.

  by Joseph Hart.
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  cofty

  Andrew Sh - You are preaching to the choir, I know all this and much more, I fully understand all the nuances and the power of the story. I used to be an evangelical and I preached the same gospel with passion and total sincerity.

  You are too close to it to see it right now but one day it may occur to you that blood sacrifice, whether animal or human, in order to appease the anger of a wrathful god is an ugly, ancient pagan notion that is unworthy of human dignity.

  It was 1st century disciples trying to make sense of Jesus' death in the context Jewish sacrificial religion.

  There never was a perfection we fell from, there is no original sin to be forgiven for, there is no judgement to come. There is however a fantastic human potential to strive for once you get off your knees.
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  NewChapter

  So from Andrew's past posts, he says he's never been a JW and was not raised as a JW. I will assume his purpose for popping over here is to save souls. BUT FIRST, he must convince everyone that they ARE sinners, and that they should feel the oppressive burden of guilt (you see, until we realize how miserable we all should be, he cannot offer his product), and then he offers the solution to the problem he wishes to create by causing people to feel ashamed of even being born.

  I think we have another godrulz here---and we know how that worked out!

  I feel sorry for you Andrew. Sorry for your need to feel shame and grovel (unless you simply like that kind of thing, in which case I don't judge, there is no such thing as sin, and I say go for it), and I fear you are not ready for the bigger truths.

  You are trying to sell a god that expects humans to grovel in the dirt before him, dehumanize them, make them feel shame, but as you have said, you like that, but we aren't buying it. I hope you go sell your snake oil elsewhere, but if you choose to stick around, be warned, I and others take it very seriously when someone comes here threatening people with hellfire. We will not allow you to threaten people who have come here to heal with your sick version of god unchallenged.
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  designs

  John Calvin- 'Our nature is not merely only bereft of good, it is so productive of every kind of evil it cannot be inactive'.