Watchtower’s Judicial System

by Marvin Shilmer 46 Replies latest jw friends

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  AZheat

  I was not told that it was a judicial meeting, one elder said that he wanted to ask me a few questions and I would be on my way. Little did I know at the time that I was being railroaded. Acsations were being made, however in this organization, you DO NOT have the right to face your accuser. My accuser said that I was drunk at his home several months earlier where several other witnesses were present, I guess it took him several months for his conscience to get to him. Wasn't he supposed to come to me first ?

  Anyway, I told the elders that if I has so offended this person then why did he ask me to give the prayer before we had the meal. This was purely a personal vendetta against me, and I was df"d for denying that it was as it was presented to me. I was not repentant, I told them I could not be repentant for something that I didnt do, that was the wrong thing to say...lol

  I knew that I was being pushed out by ones who were in good with the elders little clique, and this was confirmed when, as I undertook the traumatic experience of trying to be re instated, I attended meetings regularily for over a year (in a different hall) I was eventually recommended for reinstatement, however it had to go to the original comittee for approval, well they never ever responded to the request to be reinstated, even tho it was recommended in my new hall. It was clearly an attempt to keep me out.

  In the end, I am so glad that it happened that way, because it gave me the freedom to really research the origin and history of this organization of false prophets, and I am liberated to know that I am no longer part of something that I know Jehovah does not approve of, they will have their fill very soon....
• 

  InterestedOne

  leavingwt wrote:

  Prior to being baptized, were you informed that you could be disfellowshipped for anything that three elders agree upon? If not, DECEPTION was involved in the recruiting process.

  Although I haven't done a side-by-side comparison between the OD book given to baptism candidates and the confidential Shepherd book, I would guess a JW would claim that the OD book provides full disclosure to the prospective convert of what they are getting into. My JW friend is convinced that she "knew the deal" before she got baptized, and it is part of her reasoning for feeling no sympathy for those who leave the org - she sees them as people who made a commitment and broke it.

  If elements of the JW org policies and procedures are in fact concealed from prospective converts, how does this compare with other denominations? Like are there elements of the Methodist, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic or other such church's policies and procedures that are confidential and not revealed until a convert finds out the hard way?
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  leavingwt

  My JW friend is convinced that she "knew the deal" before she got baptized, and it is part of her reasoning for feeling no sympathy for those who leave the org - she sees them as people who made a commitment and broke it.

  Your JW friend has no sympathy, because she's not allowed to have any sympathy.

  If she has sympathy for ex-members, she herself can be disfellowshipped.

  My wife was baptized at age 11. I'd love to hear your friend explain how an eleven-year-old CHILD can make such a decision.
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  InterestedOne

  leavingwt - Yeah, I was thinking about how her strict view doesn't accommodate children who get baptized. Regarding that problem, I have heard the JW's I've spoken with recently emphasize the importance of understanding what one is committing to before getting baptized, and that the congregation needs to be careful about letting children do it too young. Aside from the problem with child baptism, regarding the other part of what I mentioned, about the OD book, do you think that book plus the other information provided to baptism candidates provides full disclosure to a consenting adult?
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  jwfacts

  Good article. The following quote you included is ironic, as it is the opposite of Watchtower JC procedure.

  "Since the local court was situated at the city gates, there was no question about the trial being public! (Deut. 16:18-20) No doubt the public trials helped influence the judges toward carefulness and justice, qualities that sometimes vanish in secret star-chamber hearings." Watchtower 1981 Jan 1 p.17

  It is amazing the difference between what is printed for the public in the Awake and what is printed in the Elders manual, which even active Witnesses are not allowed to read.

  "Hear only those witnesses who have relevant testimony regarding the alleged wrongdoing. Those who intend to testify only about the character of the accused should not be allowed do so. The witnesses should not hear details and testimony of other witnesses. Observers should not present for moral support. Recording should not be allowed." Shepherd the Flock of God p.90
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  leavingwt

  InterestedOne:

  Aside from the problem with child baptism, regarding the other part of what I mentioned, about the OD book, do you think that book plus the other information provided to baptism candidates provides full disclosure to a consenting adult?

  Two points: (1) No, the publishers do not have access to the list of offenses in the elder's book. The list in the elder book is not in the OD book. (2) The list in the elders book is not an exhaustive list. The "brazen conduct" catch-all category covers things a minor as a disagreement of opinion, or the perception of a bad attitude.

  Please go back to page one of this thread and read Terry's post. I'll quote the relevant portion, below. Do you see what they did to him? They railroaded him. This is why I said you can get DF'd for "anything" that three elders agree upon.

  Terry wrote:

  I had not attended meetings for about half a year.

  When I arrived there were 3 others present. I thought they wanted to ask me about my marital situation. My wife and I had

  separated. We spoke for awhile and nothing was said during that discussion that gave me a head's up what was coming.

  The topic stayed on the separation and possibility of divorce.

  They asked me to step outside while they discussed among themselves what had been said.

  Five minutes later I was called back inside and bluntly informed they had voted to DISFELLOWSHIP me!

  If they had pulled out a baby Harp seal and slaughtered it and bathed themselves in its blood I would not have been more surprised!

  I was stunned.

  At no time was any REASON stated!

  Only much later did I get an inkling. It had to do with the fact I was staying at a friend's house and sleeping under the same roof with an unmarried lady who was not my wife.

  Instead of asking me if fornication were involved or any specific question of intent or bringing in any witnesses NONE OF THIS was mentioned!
• 

  InterestedOne

  leavingwt - Wow. A few things are starting to hit home with me on this.

  (1) It looks like when a person gets baptized, he/she is giving the elders blanket authority (like you said "anything" 3 elders agree on) to decide what his/her standing is in the congregation, but he/she is not provided access to the information (such as the Shepherd book) explaining how the elders make their decisions.

  (2) Apart from the fact that the baptism candidate can't read the elder's rulebook to check what they are getting into, which is bad enough, I would like to know if the elders check to make sure the baptism candidate understands the blanket authority he/she is giving these men. If they say yes they do check, I would ask how exactly do they make sure the person clearly understands the commitment of submission they are about to make.

  (3) I think the elder was lying to me (or possibly out of touch with reality) when I asked him about the confidential Shepherd book. He said that a baptism candidate will learn everything that is in that book by reading the other WT literature, books, etc. and hearing what is said from the platform. Of course I asked, "then what's the problem with someone just reading your book if it's all the same information?" He said that's just the organization's policy, but he can assure me there is nothing in that book that a person won't hear at the meetings or read in the literature.
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  leavingwt

  If you read Ray Franz's first book, you'll learn how WT (literally) created a new DF'ing offense, just to kick him out. Then (!!!) they applied it...wait for it...retroactively, if my memory serves correctly.
• 

  Mad Sweeney

  Interested One, would you like to see the elders' "Flock" book?
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  jwfacts

  It had to do with the fact I was staying at a friend's house and sleeping under the same roof with an unmarried lady who was not my wife.

  Instead of asking me if fornication were involved or any specific question of intent or bringing in any witnesses NONE OF THIS was mentioned!

  A similar thing happened to a friend of mine. A woman slept the night at his house because she had been drinking and did not want to risk driving. He was disfellowshiped for fornication, despite the fact that he is gay and nothing happened.