Was the Bible forged? Author claims some New Testament books were written by 'people pretending to be apostles'

by whereami 56 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    I'll give you that things like 2 Peter were not accepted by all canons but in defense of some of these works, I'd add that they often seem to have no ax to grind or particular doctrine to advocate by their acceptance, so what's the motive?

    In the time of Jesus they didn't have movies, iPods, laptop computers, newspapers, magazines, internet, cellphones, twitter, facebook, etc.

    But, people still had a lot to say to each other. They gathered together and swapped ideas, theories, rumors, brainstorming sessions, arguments,

    and shared stories.

    When things got written down they reflected this practice. Writing down your pet ideas is a human need to communicate.

    You don't need a motive above and beyond this urge to share your ideas with others.

    In fact, one of the tasks of the early church was to burn any of these writings that pissed them off!

    There were too many ideas being circulated! Too many competing stories about Jesus!

    Even heard of Fan Fiction?

    "Oh yeah, well I heard that Jesus once fed FIVE THOUSAND people with only a few loaves and fishes!"

    "I can top that! I heard that he calmed rough seas and WALKED ON WATER!!"

  • dgp
    dgp

    Highly qualified assistants are mentioned elsewhere in the New Testament. Thus 1 Peter 5:12: “I write these few words to you through Silvanus, who is a trustworthy brother, to encourage you and attest that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it!”

    St Paul's Letter to the Romans 16:22 reads: “I, Tertius, who am writing this letter, greet you in the Lord' ('Ego Tertios ho grapsas ten epistolen'). On the strength of this declaration, the American New Testament scholar Gary Burge entitled a recent article on Tertius 'The Real Writer of Romans'.

    -The Jesus Papyrus (1996)

    If I'm not mistaken, Ehrman does not question that Paul was the author of the Epistle to the Romans. He does say 1 and 2 Peter are forgeries.

    Here is part of his argument about 1 Peter:

    "...The author ends his exhortation to be steadfast in the face of adversity by indicating that he has written this letter "through Silvanus, a faithful brother" (i.e., a true Christian) and by sending greetings from "she who is in Babylon, who is also chosen" (5:13). Scholars have long realized what this last bit means. Babylon was the city that was seen as the ultimate enemy of God among Jews, since it was Babylon that had defeated Judah and destroyed Jerusalem and its temple in the sixth century BCE. By the end of the first century, Christians and Jews had started using the word "Babylon" as a code word for the city of Rome, which also destroyed Jerusalem and its temple, in the year 70 (see e.g., Rev. 14:8; 17:5). The author, then, is claiming to be writing from the city of Rome. This makes sense, given the later traditions that associated Peter with the city of Rome, in fact as its first bishop - the first pope.

    But tradition also indicates that Peter was martyred in Rome under Nero in 64 CE. Would it make sene that he would be calling Rome "Babylon" before the Romans had destroyed Jerusalem in the year 70? By the time that catastrophe hit, Peter was long dead. As it turns out, there are other, very good grounds for thinking that Peter did not actually write this book. It was written by someone claiming to be Peter. Before explaining some of thse grounds, we should first look at the second letter in the New Testament written in Peter's name".

    Then there are many pages of text which I am afraid I won't copy here. I would need to re-copy many pages of a very new book. But the text continues later this way:

    "And so, is it possible that Peter wrote 1 and 2 Peter? We have seen good reasons for believing he did not write 2 Peter, and some reason for thinking that he didn't write 1 Peter. But it is highly probable that in fact he could not write at all. I should point out that the book of 1 Peter is written in a highly literate, highly educated, Greek-speaking Christian who is intimately familiar with the Jewish Scriptures in their Greek translation, the Septuagint. This is not Peter.

    It is theoretically possible, of course, that Peter decided to go to school after Jesus's resurrection. In this imaginative (not to say imaginary) scenario, he learned his alphabet, learned how to sound out syllables and then words, learned to read, and learned to write. Then he took Greek classes, mastered Greek as a foreign language, and started memorizing large chunks of the Septuagint, after which he took Greek composition classes and learned how to compose complicated and rethorically effective sentences; then, toward the end of his life, he worte 1 Peter.

    Is this scenario plausible? Apart from the fact that we don't know of "adult education" classes in antiquity -there's no evidence they existed- I think most reasonable people woul conclude that Peter probably had other things on his mind and on his hands after he came to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead. He probably never thought for a single second about learning how to become a rhetorically skilled Greek author.

    Some scholars have suggested that Peter did not directly write 1 Peter (as I've indicated, almost no one thinks he wrote 2 Peter), but that he indirectly wrote it, for example, by dictating the letter to a scribe. Some have noted that the letter is written "through Silvanus" (5:12) and thought that maybe Silvanus wrote down Peter's thoughts for him. I deal with this question of whether scribes or secretaries actually ever composed such letter-essays in Chapter 4. The answer is, "almost certainly not". But for now I can say at least a couple of words about the case of 1 Peter".

    First off, scholars now widely recognize that when the author indicates that he wrote the book "through Silvanus", he is indicating not the name of his secretary, but the person who was carrying the letter to the recipients. Authors who used secretaries don't refer to them in this way.

    But why not suppose that Peter used someone else, other than Silvanus, as a secretary? It would help to imagine who this theory is supposed to work exactly. Peter could not have dictated the letter in Greek to a secretary any more than he could have written it in Greek. That would have required him to be perfectly fluent in Greek, to have mastered rethorical techniques in Greek, and to have had an intimate familiarity with the Jewish Scriptures in Greek. None of that is plausible. Nor can one easily think that he dictated the letter in Aramaic and the secretary translated it into Greek. The letter does not read like a Greek translation of an Aramaic original, but as an original Greek composition with Greek rethorical flourishes. Moreover,t he letter presupposes the knowledge of the Greek Old Testament, so the person who composed the letter (whether orally or in writing) must have known the Scriptures in Greek.

    Is it possible, then that the historical Peter directed someone to write a letter, basically told him what to say, and let him produce it? To that there are two responses. First, it would seem that if someone else actually composed the leter, it would be that person, not Peter, who was the author. But the other person is never named. Even in Paul's letters that are coauthored (almost all of them), he names the others, even though he probably wrote them himself. In this case, Peter would not have even written the thing. And it should be remembered that there are good grounds for thinking that the letter was written after Peter had died, since it alludes to Rome's destruction of Jerusalem in the year 70.

    But even more compelling is this. Where in the ancient world do we have anything at all analogous to this hypothetical situation of someone writing a letter-essay for someone else and putting the other person's name on it - the name of the person who did not write it- rather than his own name? So far as I know, there is not a single instance of any such procedure attested from antiquity or any discussion, in any ancient source, of this being a legitimate practice. Or even an illegitimate one. Such a thing is never discussed.

    There are plenty of instances of another phenomenon, however. This is the phenomenon of Christian authors writing pseudonymous works, flasely claiming to be a famous person. Ancient scholars would have called a book like that a "falsely inscribed" writing, a "lie", an "illegitimate" child. Modern people would simply call it a forgery."

  • Terry
    Terry

    Hyper-inflated claims for the bible have set this up.

    The Holy bible is like a product that can cure anything: a panacea.

    It falls short and causes people to become disillusioned.

    The problem is with the divine and inerrant claims and not with what the bible actually is: an accumulation of religious writing.

    Deifying the bible is Martin Luther's solution to destroying the hold of the Catholic heirarchy on infallible declaration of faith and morals.

    Luther counter-attacked the church by declaring the Pope obsolete and placing the Bible on the throne of the church in his place.

    That was the beginning for the hyper inflated claims.

  • tec
    tec

    @ Terry

  • metatron
    metatron

    The arguments above sound rather strained to me and attributing the "inspired" writing to a secretary is mostly a technical point, as an objection.

    Arguments about 'Babylon' being Rome are interesting but rest on the assumption that Peter had to use this name out of fear or just inflexible habit. We would need to go further to see how reliable these Rome = Babylon ideas are , apart from Orthodox/Catholic influence.

    Fan fiction might support, rather than oppose the notion of 'no motive' for a forgery. I'm not clear on what 'pet ideas' are found in 2 Peter. It's not like this thing is StarTrek being written with Kirk and Spock being gay roommates, for example!

    OTOH, you can argue that the existing church conservatively eliminated anything that looked suspicious or outside the mainstream of congregations back then and we possess the default literature. Altho, if so, they could have done a much better job of supporting the use of images, justifying the hierarchy and padding the Virgin Mary's resume.

    metatron

  • dgp
    dgp
    Deifying the bible is Martin Luther's solution to destroying the hold of the Catholic heirarchy on infallible declaration of faith and morals.
    Luther counter-attacked the church by declaring the Pope obsolete and placing the Bible on the throne of the church in his place.
    That was the beginning for the hyper inflated claims.

    I agree.

    As to whether the Bible contains forged books or not, I believe it will never be possible for everyone to agree on the same idea, whether it is that the Bible contains no forgeries, misquotes, et cetera, or whether it does. In the second case, it would still be possible for some people to claim that it is still "the Good Book" and is still "God's word", as is the Catholic Church's point of view, which they reinforce every time the priest reads the Gospel at mass, when he ends his reading with "This is the Word of God".

    Many years ago, when I was in college, the priest who taught us Theology (a mandatory course for every student, whatever his or her religion) said that, in the end, the Catholic Church didn't believe in God because it were or were not written on the Bible. "We believe", he said, "because the Apostles saw what they saw and they told us". In other words, he believed because he thought there was a chain of witnesses. Since this priest was from Spain, perhaps it wouldn't be too much stretching of his words to say that he believed because James saw stuff, and he went to what today we call Spain to tell everyone about it, and everyone has been telling the truth.

    You could object that he could not produce such a chain of witnesses, but the point I am trying to make is that you could still believe in Jesus Christ even if the Bible turned out to be bogus. That is what the priest claimed.

    I think, however, that it should be possible for all of us to agree on the point that, since the Bible is given that tremendous importance, it is only natural to expect that men (and possibly women) of many ages saw how "strategic" it was to control what the Bible said, as it is the same as controlling what "YHWH" says. I need no more evidence than the Johannine Comma (http://www.bible-researcher.com/comma.html and, also, https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Comma_Johanneum. So many years ago, I came to know that William Tyndale existed when I read an Awake! (or Watchtower, it doesn't matter) at my grandpa's grocery store. No one had told me, as a Catholic, that the Catholic Church had originally been against translating the Bible into vernacular languages. I did understand WHY they were against it. If they controlled the Bible, they controlled the people. The same logic behind keeping people poor and ignorant: that way it is easier to control them.

    I am also absolutely convinced that the reason why the Watchtower has a Bible of its own is that they needed "God's Word" that they could quote at will, because they made it beforehand to say what they want it to say.

    I believe, then, that, at the very least, one should make sure that the Bible does not contain misquotes, intentional changes to the text, forgeries, and the like. If not to disprove it as God's word, at least to keep it clean of the dirty work that many did with it. I don't think you can achieve that if you start from the belief that it is just not possible for the Bible to contain intentional "misquotes" and forgeries. By the way, Erhman claims that his starting point was, exactly, that the Bible was indeed inerrant.

  • transhuman68
    transhuman68

    Anyone who investigates some of the supposedly apocryphal writing like 3 Corinthians can easily see what a political process writing a book of the Bible became.

    Many of the New Testament supposedly ‘inspired scriptures’ were slanted to be pro-Rome, and anti-Gnostic.

    To imagine that sheep-herders and fishermen actually wrote these books is ludicrous.

    IMO the whole Bible is a forgery.

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    Some very interesting tidbits on this website (complete with links)

    http://freetruth.50webs.org/B2c.htm

    Every one knows that the Evangeliums were written neither by Jesus nor his apostles, but long after their time by some unknown persons, who, judging well that they would hardly be believed when telling of things they had not seen themselves, headed their narratives with the names of the apostles or of disciples contemporaneous with the latter.
    -- Fauste, Manichean, 3rd century

    All the Gospels derive their basic story of Jesus of Nazareth from a single source: whoever produced the first version of Mark.
    That Matthew and Luke are reworkings of Mark with extra, mostly teaching, material added is now an almost universal scholarly conclusion, while many also consider that John has drawn his framework for Jesus’ ministry and death from a Synoptic source as well. We thus have a Christian movement spanning half the empire and a full century which nevertheless has managed to produce only one version of the events that are supposed to lie at its inception.

    Acts, as an historical witness to Jesus and the beginnings of the Christian movement, cannot be relied upon, since it is a tendentious creation of the second century, dependent on the Gospels and designed to create a picture of Christian origins traceable to a unified body of apostles in Jerusalem who were followers of an historical Jesus. Many scholars now admit that much of Acts is sheer fabrication.

    The Gospels as (fictional) "Midrash"
    Not only do the Gospels contain basic and irreconcilable differences in their accounts of Jesus, they have been put together according to a traditional Jewish practice known as "midrash", which involved reworking and enlarging on scripture. This could entail the retelling of older biblical stories in new settings. Thus, Mark’s Jesus of Nazareth was portrayed as a new Moses, with features that paralleled the stories of Moses. Many details were fashioned out of specific passages in scripture.
    ... Liberal scholars now regard the Gospels as "faith documents" and not accurate historical accounts.

    What is said of the Apocryphal Gospels which appeared in the early ages of the church?
    "Several histories of his [Christ's] life and doctrines, full of pious frauds and fabulous wonders, were composed by persons whose intentions perhaps were not bad, but whose writings discovered the greatest superstition and ignorance. Nor was this all; productions appeared which were imposed upon the world by fraudulent men, as the writings of the holy Apostles."
    -- Mosheim
    Is the above less true of the books [canonical Gospels] we are reviewing? Are not these writings 'full of pious frauds and fabulous wonders"? Do not these writings display "the greatest superstition and ignorance"? Have not these writings been "imposed upon the world by fraudulent men, as the writings of the holy (?) Apostles"?

    If some of these apocryphal Gospels had been accepted as canonical, and the canonical Gospels had been rejected as apocryphal, these canonical Gospels would appear as untruthful and foolish to Christians as the apocryphal Gospels do.
    -- The Christ, John E. Remsberg

    And so much more........

  • metatron
    metatron

    I am always suspicious of argumentation that begins, "Everyone knows...."

    There are many good technical points to be made, such as those about using secretaries to write and translate but that falls far short of 'forgery'. Guys like Paul and Peter ( the fisherman) could have had lots of help.

    Keep in mind that Paul matter of factly states that a large number of eyewitnesses to the resurrection were alive in his day (500?)

    If you look at the arguments of scholars overall, I don't see a lot of credibility. Somehow, Christianity escapes destruction at Jerusalem while Judaism gets slaughtered. Somehow they are given the opportunity to leave.

    Somehow, decades pass, while one simple 'Gospel" exists - and nobody writes anything else official until after the big event in 70 AD. Somehow, a piece of John gets written, transcribed and buried in Egypt around the end of the 1st century - while looking everything like a final, complimentary Gospel, hinting at the existence of the others.

    Somehow, inspite of a great need for an official history to be written in response to the needs of a zealous preaching work, nothing gets done until decades pass.

    Somehow, a stripped down minimalist, barely teaching at all Gospel (Mark) is first even though they first preach all thru the Jewish world, not Gentile. Matthew gets trashed as an apostle - even though the historical testimony about his work is clear - perhaps because he would be literate, and have knowledge of other languages as a tax collector. Jesus gives his sermons but nobody has a wax tablet or stylus to write.

    I guess the part that seems almost humorous is the idea that you have all these dynamic figures doing things and preaching but somehow every or nearly everything attributed to them is an utter forgery. Come on, you early Christians! Didn't somebody pen an authentic work and then somebody else copy it???

    There's more but this subject has always appeared to me to resemble , not credible scholarship, but more like a corrupt sheriff, who frames a guy hanging around at a bus terminal for a crime he needs "solved". Dudes, these miracles have got to go, so rearrange the dates and the facts to fit.

    I am way, way, way far from anything even approaching a Bible inerrantist . Laugh if you wish, but I think Christianity was the product of an extraterrestrial intervention that was guided to produce a historical result (i.e. more or less where we are now in history).

    metatron

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    I agree with you metatron..... Yahweh, the Bible, Christianity... it was all channeled. Unfortunately the truth got corrupted and we ended up enslaved.

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