The Bible contains interlocking harmony and so does the vast majority of world history associated with the Bible.
Rbi8 p. 8 Introduction
There are more than 125,000 marginal (cross) references in this (New World Translation) edition. These citations demonstrate that there is at least a second witness to almost every Biblical matter. A careful comparison of the marginal references and an examination of the accompanying footnotes will reveal the interlocking harmony of the 66 Bible books, proving that they comprise one book, inspired by God.
Its integrity to truth proves sound on any point that might be tested. Its history is accurate and can be relied upon. For example, what it says about the fall of Babylon to the Medes and Persians cannot be successfully contradicted (Jer 51:11, 12, 28; Da 5:28), neither can what it says about people like Babylonian Nebuchadnezzar (Jer 27:20; Da 1:1); Egyptian King Shishak (1Ki 14:25; 2Ch 12:2); Assyrians Tiglath-pileser III and Sennacherib (2Ki 15:29; 16:7; 18:13); the Roman emperors Augustus, Tiberius, and Claudius (Lu 2:1; 3:1; Ac 18:2); Romans such as Pilate, Felix, and Festus (Ac 4:27; 23:26; 24:27); nor what it says about the temple of Artemis at Ephesus and the Areopagus at Athens (Ac 19:35; 17:19-34). What the Bible says about these or any other places, people, or events is historically accurate in every detail.
Opponents of 607 B.C.E may try considering exactly what Luke 21:23-24 signifies and then add the secular history. This was a concept that was pretty much ignored in my prior post.
http://www.watchtower21.org/2010/11/gentile-times-reconsidered.html
For there will be great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled. Luke 21:23-24
Or rendered:
http://nlt.scripturetext.com/luke/21.htm
Jesus Foretells the Future
How terrible it will be for pregnant women and for nursing mothers in those days. For there will be disaster in the land and great anger against this people. They will be killed by the sword or sent away as captives to all the nations of the world. And Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the period of the Gentiles comes to an end. Luke 21:23-24
“It was in B.C. 606, that God’s kingdom ended, the diadem was removed, and all the earth given up to the Gentiles. 2520 years from B.C. 606, will end in A.D. 1914.”—The Three Worlds, published in 1877 by N.H. Barbour and C.T. Russell, page 83.
The visibility of God's Kingdom as a heavenly and visible earthly organization should be the focus when reaching conclusions.
Recognized authorities of today accept 539 B.C.E. without any question as the year Babylon was overthrown by Cyrus the Great. With the date 539 B.C.E. so firmly fixed and agreed to by so many scholars, there are reasons for confidence in where we stand today in relation to the fall of Jerusalem and then Babylon twenty-five centuries ago and the complete restoration of God's visible earthly organization. October 6, 1968, marked 2,506 years since the fall of that third world empire.
Two centuries earlier Jehovah by the mouth of his prophet Isaiah had declared: “[I am] the One saying of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out’; even in my saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be rebuilt,’ and of the temple, ‘You will have your foundation laid.’” (Isa. 44:28) Without further delay this two-hundred-year-old prophecy was about to be fulfilled. Cyrus acceded to the throne and “in the first year” of his reign, at least before the spring of 537, “Jehovah roused the spirit of Cyrus.” He issued the famous edict permitting the Jews to return and rebuild Jehovah’s temple, copies of which were written and circulated throughout the realm. This allowed sufficient time for the Jews to resettle in their homeland, ‘establish the altar firmly upon its own site,’ and “from the first day of the seventh month” start offering up burnt sacrifices to Jehovah. This date, the “first day of the seventh month,” according to the best astronomical tables available, is calculated to be October 5 (Julian) or September 29 (Gregorian) 537 B.C.E.—Ezra 1:1-4; 3:1-6.
Here, then, very definitely established, is another milestone—the time when the seventy years of desolation of the land of Judah came to an end—about October 1, 537. (Jer. 25:11, 12; 29:10) It is now a simple formula to determine when the seventy years began. One has only to add 70 to 537 to get 607. So about October 1, 607 B.C.E., the desolating of the land of Judah and the complete emptying out of its inhabitants was fully accomplished.
All the secular data is there and fits together isometrically when counting back 2520 years from 1914 C.E. and taking into consideration the accession and first regnal year of Cyrus. Will you accept the complete and harmonious Biblical chronology, which gives us a time-line without contradictions, showing the total fulfillment of every prophecy Jehovah gave us or listen to the voices of atheists, the likes of AnnOMaly and others who are obviously completely alienated from God? God's existence doesn't depend strictly on excavated cuneiform tablets. That's a very small aspect of evidence for the supernatural.
NEED HELP Proving that 607 BC is false and list of flip-flops
by doubtful 39 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
Spade
-
Terry
There are more than 125,000 marginal (cross) references in this (New World Translation) edition. These citations demonstrate that there is at least a second witness to almost every Biblic al matter
Just a minute..not so fast there, Bubba! A "witness" is at the scene of an event and experiences with their senses what they corroborate. The citations in the NWT demonstrate nothing of the kind. What is written in the margins of the NWT is about as compelling as what is written in the margins of Mad MAGAZINE and not nearly as funny.
A careful comparison of the marginal references and an examination of the accompanying footnotes will reveal the interlocking harmony of the 66 Bible books, proving that they comprise one book, inspired by God.
I wish I had a mug full of whatever you are drinking! When you write a book (or pretend to translate a bible) you can put whatever you want in the margin including irrelevent non-correlations. This is only "harmony" if you think a cat can sing opera.
Its integrity to truth proves sound on any point that might be tested.
The Watchtower application of their Bible to world events HAS TESTED and proved they are NEVER right about any predictions made. This proves sound the idea they are False Prophets. Were you around in 1975? Exactly what WAS the significance of that date in the final analysis?? Hmmmm?
I'm going to take a wild guess that you are about 20 years old and only shave once a week. How wrong am I?
-
jonathan dough
Here, then, very definitely established, is another milestone—the time when the seventy years of desolation of the land of Judah came to an end—about October 1, 537. (Jer. 25:11, 12; 29:10)
The JW's Return Theory, whereby the 70 years ends when the Jews returned to Judah is manifestly incorrect. It's impossible. It ended while the Jews were still in Babylon. Here are just a few reasons.
First, nowhere in the Bible does it state that the return of the Jews marked the end of the seventy years. Second, Leviticus 26:32-35 whereby Moses prophesied the pending curse and punishment that befell the Jews states that Jehovah would scatter them among the nations and that the land would become a desolation, and Judah would pay off its Sabbaths all the days of its lying desolate while the exiles were in the land of their enemies, Babylon, and not after they returned.
32 And I, for my part, will lay the land desolate, and YOUR enemies who are dwelling in it will simply stare in amazement over it. 33 And YOU I shall scatter among the nations, and I will unsheathe a sword after YOU; and YOUR land must become a desolation, and YOUR cities will become a desolate ruin.
34 “‘At that time the land will pay off its sabbaths all the days of its lying desolated, while YOU are in the land of YOUR enemies. At that time the land will keep sabbath, as it must repay its sabbaths. 35 All the days of its lying desolated it will keep sabbath, for the reason that it did not keep sabbath during YOUR sabbaths when YOU were dwelling upon it.
So even though the exiles had not reoccupied the desolated lands and were still in Babylon, the seventy-year prophetic curse ended.
Third, Jeremiah 25:12 states that only after the seventy years had ended, or been fulfilled, Jehovah would call to account against the king of Babylon, which he did beginning with its fall to Cyrus in October 539 B.C.E., one date the Jehovah’s Witnesses and everyone else seem to agree on. The seventy years ended when Babylon fell, not two years later when the exiles stepped foot back on the soil of Judah.12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de´ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite. 13 And I will bring in upon that land all my words that I have spoken against it, even all that is written in this book that Jeremiah has prophesied against all the nations. 14 For even they themselves, many nations and great kings, have exploited them as servants; and I will repay them according to their activity and according to the work of their hands.’”
Fourth, Jeremiah 29:10 likewise concludes the end of the seventy-year period of servitude while the Jews were in Babylon, not after they returned.
10 “For this is what Jehovah has said, ‘In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon I shall turn my attention to YOU people, and I will establish toward YOU my good word in bringing YOU back to this place.’
11 “‘For I myself well know the thoughts that I am thinking toward YOU,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘thoughts of peace, and not of calamity, to give YOU a future and a hope. 12 And YOU will certainly call me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to YOU.’
13 “‘And YOU will actually seek me and find [me], for YOU will search for me with all YOUR heart. 14 And I will let myself be found by YOU,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘And I will gather YOUR body of captives and collect YOU together out of all the nations and out of all the places to which I have dispersed YOU,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘And I will bring YOU back to the place from which I caused YOU to go into exile.’
After the seventy years ended Jehovah would turn his attention to his people and bring them back. The seventy years had to end first in 539 B.C.E., in Babylon, and only then would his people be gathered together and brought back.
Fifth, 2 Chronicles 36:20 states that the captives removed to Babylon would be servants to the king “until the royalty of Persia began to reign,” which began October 539 B.C.E. and not until the exiles physically returned to Judah two years later."Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; ... "
Both sides agree that Babylon fell to the Persians in October 539 B.C.E. That fall signaled the beginning of Persia’s reign. The prophet Daniel foretold its sudden collapse when he interpreted the writing on the wall for Babylon’s king Belshazzer,“This is the interpretation of the word: MENE, God has numbered [the days of] your kingdom and finished it.” And he did in 539 B.C.E.
-
AnnOMaly
Spade, you still have unfinished business on the other thread, where you haven't yet answered the counter-arguments raised by TD, jonathon dough, me and others. You have totally ignored the examples I gave on this thread where prophecy wasn't literally fulfilled in every single detail.
The rest of your post comments on matters either not in dispute (that the people and places in the Bible you mentioned are historically true) or is mere repetition of the WTS'/your default position (which has already been challenged elsewhere). I also think a substantial part of your post was a quote from the WT literature, but it doesn't appear to have been credited.
Regarding Luke 21:23-24, Jesus was referring to the coming destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE and that it will be trampled on (future) for an appointed time by those conquering nations. This certainly happened.
Insight 2, p. 48 Jerusalem
The entire city was demolished, with only the towers of Herod's palace and a portion of the western wall left standing as evidence to later generations of the defensive strength that had availed nothing. Josephus remarks that, apart from these remnants, "the rest of the wall encompassing the city was so completely levelled to the ground as to leave future visitors to the spot no ground for believing that it had ever been inhabited." (The Jewish War, VII, 3, 4 [i, 1]) A relief on the Arch of Titus in Rome depicts Roman soldiers carrying off sacred vessels of the ruined temple.-Compare Mt 24:2; PICTURE, Vol. 2, p. 752.
Later Periods. Jerusalem remained virtually desolate until about 130 C.E., when Emperor Hadrian ordered the building of a new city, named Aelia Capitolina. This provoked a Jewish revolt by Bar Kokhba (132-135 C.E.), which succeeded for a time but was then crushed. Jews were not allowed in the Roman-built city for nearly two centuries. In the fourth century, Constantine the Great's mother Helena visited Jerusalem and began the identification of the many so-called holy sites and shrines. Later the Muslims captured the city. Today there are two Islamic structures on the Temple Mount. Late in the seventh century Caliph ?Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan built the Dome of the Rock on or near the temple site. Although also called a mosque, it is in reality a shrine. South of the Dome of the Rock is the present-day el-Aqsa mosque constructed near the beginning of the seventh century on the site of an earlier building.
-
NomadSoul
I always shut down JW's that try to preach to me by asking them to explain to me the 607 date or the 1914 date just using their Bibles. When they say they will have to do some research on the matter I ask them. "How long have you been a JW? You would think that if you were very sure this was the truth you would know something this important like the palm of your hand!". I get no answer just stares. LOL
-
Spade
Spade, you still have unfinished business on the other thread, where you haven't yet answered the counter-arguments raised by TD, jonathon dough, me and others. You have totally ignored the examples I gave on this thread where prophecy wasn't literally fulfilled in every single detail.
The rest of your post comments on matters either not in dispute (that the people and places in the Bible you mentioned are historically true) or is mere repetition of the WTS'/your default position (which has already been challenged elsewhere). I also think a substantial part of your post was a quote from the WT literature, but it doesn't appear to have been credited.
Regarding Luke 21:23-24, Jesus was referring to the coming destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE and that it will be trampled on (future) for an appointed time by those conquering nations. This certainly happened.
Insight 2, p. 48 Jerusalem
The entire city was demolished, with only the towers of Herod's palace and a portion of the western wall left standing as evidence to later generations of the defensive strength that had availed nothing. Josephus remarks that, apart from these remnants, "the rest of the wall encompassing the city was so completely levelled to the ground as to leave future visitors to the spot no ground for believing that it had ever been inhabited." (The Jewish War, VII, 3, 4 [i, 1]) A relief on the Arch of Titus in Rome depicts Roman soldiers carrying off sacred vessels of the ruined temple.-Compare Mt 24:2; PICTURE, Vol. 2, p. 752.
Later Periods. Jerusalem remained virtually desolate until about 130 C.E., when Emperor Hadrian ordered the building of a new city, named Aelia Capitolina. This provoked a Jewish revolt by Bar Kokhba (132-135 C.E.), which succeeded for a time but was then crushed. Jews were not allowed in the Roman-built city for nearly two centuries. In the fourth century, Constantine the Great's mother Helena visited Jerusalem and began the identification of the many so-called holy sites and shrines. Later the Muslims captured the city. Today there are two Islamic structures on the Temple Mount. Late in the seventh century Caliph ?Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan built the Dome of the Rock on or near the temple site. Although also called a mosque, it is in reality a shrine. South of the Dome of the Rock is the present-day el-Aqsa mosque constructed near the beginning of the seventh century on the site of an earlier building.
I don't necessarily have time to respond to every post especially when spam artists muck up the thread with a bunch of garbage.
The period of the Gentiles was domination over God's visible organization. The “trampling down by the Gentiles” started with the nation of natural Israel and ended with the restoration of God's visible organization.
it-1 p. 523 Covenant
Law Covenant. The Law covenant between Jehovah and the nation of natural Israel was made in the third month after their leaving Egypt, in 1513 B.C.E. (Ex 19:1) It was a national covenant. One born a natural Israelite was, by birth, in the Law covenant and was thus in this special relationship with Jehovah.
New Covenant. Jehovah foretold the new covenant by the prophet Jeremiah in the seventh century B.C.E., stating that it would not be like the Law covenant, which Israel broke. (Jer 31:31-34) On the night before his death, Nisan 14, 33 C.E., when he established the celebration of the Lord’s Evening Meal, Jesus Christ announced the new covenant, to be validated by his sacrifice. (Lu 22:20) On the 50th day from his resurrection and 10 days after he had ascended to his Father, he poured out the holy spirit, which he had received from Jehovah, on his disciples gathered in an upper room in Jerusalem.—Ac 2:1-4, 17, 33; 2Co 3:6, 8, 9; Heb 2:3, 4.
Jesus foretold that his teachings would be subverted so the restoration of God's visible organization was reserved for some future date: “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left.” Surprisingly, when servants brought the evil deed to the man’s attention and asked for permission to collect the weeds, the man said: “No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.” Matthew 13:24-30.
Christendom's churches obviously didn't signify the restoration of God's visible organization. "The world's religions have . . . brought the horrors of human sacrifice, crusades, pogroms and inquisitions.” The "trampling" on true worship continued until 1914 C.E.
A short period of time was foretold between end of the appointed times of the nations (Jesus’ presence in Kingdom power), signs and portents that would be indicative of this and finally the end of the entire system of things.
On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.” Revelation 12:12
The anointed remnant, the 144,000 that were chosen after the Gentile Times had ended received their heavenly calling in 1919. The Bible contains and perfect and harmonious message from God that has application in our time that’s become clearer over the decades. -
stuckinamovement
Shovel,
Is it possible that the WTBS got these doctrinal assertions wrong? In 70 CE every sign that Jesus gave his disciples was fulfilled. Jerusalem was destroyed. Period. The idea that there is a coming destruction for all mankind that will fulfill all of the signs again on a greater scale is a joke. I think that as part of the Great Awakening many people wanted to see the return of Christ so bad that they convinced themselves that it would happen in their lifetime. They thought to themselves "how much worse can the world get?" They looked at Matthew 24 and twisted and contorted to see the fulfillment of the signs in every single world event. Earthquakes- "its the sign! Wars- "its the sign! Food Shortages- its the sign! Pestilence oh dear its the sign! Look the good news is preached throughout the earth! Its the sign!
The Society takes those signs that Jesus gave, combines them with nutcase Adventist based chronology and presto gets the end of the Gentile times in 1914. Instead of "every eye seeing" Jesus's return it suddenly became an "invisible" return. He has been invisibly ruling for almost 100 years. It is so out there it is comical. I can't believe that I used to support it and defend it myself. Just because an organization insists that it is absolutely right doesn't mean it is.
Did you know that I can fly? I do it all the time. No one can see me though because I do it while wearing an invisibility cloak. Just believe me. If you don't believe that I can fly do don't deserve to see me do it anyways. Silly huh?
Hey I don't want to be a jerk about this, but can you prove your assertions in another way than simply cutting and pasting false doctrine that requires someone to simply turn their mind off and believe?? Use logic, history, science to prove your assertions. God did give most of us a brain and he expects us to use it.
(Oh and sorry to the OP for hijacking the thread.)
SIAM
-
AnnOMaly
Spade:
I don't necessarily have time to respond to every post especially when spam artists muck up the thread with a bunch of garbage.
What you're supposed to do is skip past the garbage and spam and home in on those addressing your arguments. Besides, it's not a thread where you were casually throwing in an odd comment or two, it's YOUR thread which you started and where you invited discussion. You bailed out of the discussion and now you're rehashing the same stuff here. Thought I'd point that out.
The rest of your post contains repeated assertions without meeting any of my points head on. It does nothing to disprove that Jesus couldn't have been giving a prophecy about Jerusalem's future.
-
jonathan dough
The anointed remnant, the 144,000 that were chosen after the Gentile Times had ended received their heavenly calling in 1919.
Impossible. There is no such thing as a literal 144,000 anointed Jehovah's Witnesses who rule over earth from heaven. It has been disproven a thousand times over.
http://144000.110mb.com/144000/index.html
http://www.144000.110mb.com/directory/jehovahs_witnesses_144000_144_000_heaven.html
Pasting other people's irrelevant text doesn't help your case any.
-
AnnOMaly
The anointed remnant, the 144,000 that were chosen after the Gentile Times had ended received their heavenly calling in 1919.
I didn't digest this statement before (it was irrelevant to the wider discussion anyway) but if he really believes that, then who are the ones in the GB now running the show? Imposters? The current GB members weren't even born in 1919, let alone recipients of any heavenly calling! LOL.
(I think rather that he just badly worded it.)