NEED HELP Proving that 607 BC is false and list of flip-flops

by doubtful 39 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Crisis of Conscience

  Spade said - There's plenty of evidence that reveals where we are in harmony with Jehovah's timetable,

  Who's WE? I thought you said it was your "wife" that was involved with the witnesses?

  If there is anyone bringing shame to God's name and obscuring truth, IT's YOU Alice. Misrepresenting yourself IS A LIE.

  Go lick Sasquatch's left.............................................................................................................................................................toe.

  @ Amelia Ashton - Thanks for the video!!

  CoC
• 

  doubtful

  Thank you guys.. (and gals). Please keep it coming..I'll be able to post more on this thread in a couple of days hopefully.

  Anything on lists of biblical errors,contradictions, etc?

  FDS doctrine? Who was the slave before Russell? etc..

  Two prophecies in the bible that would seem to indicate a divine source are the 70 weeks prophecy and the arrival of Jesus, as well as the naming of Cyrus in the book of Isaiah. Yet on the other hand, there are prophecies such as the 40 year desolation of Egypt which never materialized. How is this explained? And are there any other biblical prophecies which were not fulfilled?
• 

  Black Sheep

  Who was the slave before Russell?

  The point I am trying to make is that .........

  ........... you should be asking her these questions ........ not us.

  Knowing the answer yourself isn't important to your mission.

  What is important is .........

  ........ Her knowing that her answer is constructed out of fairy dust.

  She needs to do the research to find that out for herself.

  What you need to do is give her a really good reason to want to do the research.n Saving your arse from her killer god should do the trick. You know her better than I do. Think about how to give her the incentive to do the research to prove to you that she can save you.

  Be patient

  Chris
• 

  Black Sheep

  How extensive is her own personal library?

  Have a look at http://www.myiphonestuff.info/qwotes/sodom_gomorrah.htm

  How many of these books and mags will she have? The more the merrier. If you just happen to have the ones she doesn't, that's ok too.

  The idea is not to show her the list of flip flops, but to get her to read them to you ...........

  .........one at a time .........

  ........ and explain them to you ...........

  ......... one at a time .........

  ........ not even on the same day.

  Give her time to think about each one ............

  ......... try to get her to commit to believing each one ..........

  .......... one at a time.

  Slowly, slowly, catchy monkey
• 

  Black Sheep

  Hello mAlice/Spade.

  Have you done your homework yet?

  I'm still waiting to see your corrected Neo-Babylonian king list.....

  ........and your correction of AlanF's 538 return tabulation. Feeling a little tired are we? All that door knocking wearing you out? Too busy painting Granddad's kingdom hall before the borer beats it to Armageddon?
• 

  AnnOMaly

  doubtful, when it comes to proving or disproving anything about Bible prophecy, you'll always be standing on the uneven ground of interpretation.
  
  Bible believers will come unstuck if they have an overly literalistic view of prophetic fulfillments where they gloss over or ignore certain aspects that don't fit historically while pushing forward the details that do fit*. Or they will apply the passages quite differently to other historical events (at variance with the JW explanation on it). Or they believe the general sense of the prophecy came to pass, but many of the details were exaggerations for the sake of emphasis, a rhetorical device.
  
  There are other interpretations of the 70 weeks prophecy suggested by Bible scholars. The JW interpretation of it unfortunately uses another wrong date to start from - 445 BCE as the 20th year of Artaxerxes and 'the word to rebuild Jerusalem' (the real date for Art's 20th year is 455 BCE). Using the true date would mean adjusting their understanding of the 70 weeks prophecy somewhat.
  
  Cyrus' mention by name in Isaiah assumes that this part of Isaiah (Deutero(2nd)-Isaiah) was written 200 years or so in advance and not nearer the time of the Persian empire's ascendancy when Cyrus was already on the horizon, so-to-speak.
  
  Egypt's 40 years? The WTS has mentioned the cuneiform fragment about Nebuchadnezzar's campaign against Egypt in his 37th year, but there is nothing either in the Bible or in contemporary historical records that details how this campaign went. There is no evidence of any depopulation of Egypt at that time - in fact the contrary - that it was a prosperous period. The WTS just says that despite the data being scant, the 40 years desolation 'must have' come true somehow (see your WT CD Library for specific statements).
  
  FDS before Russell? See http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/faithful-discreet-slave.php.
  
  
  * For example, Jer. 50 and 51. It says that at the hands of the Medes, Babylon would be razed to the ground so that no inhabitant would reside there and it would only be the domain of wild animals, so God's people should get out and flee for their lives. Historically, while the Medes (in cahoots with the Persians) did conquer Babylon and slaughter 'princes' (50:35; 51:57) - most notably Belshazzar (Dan. 5:30,31) - the Jewish exiles didn't have to flee for their lives but left Babylon in an orderly fashion with the blessing and financial help of the conquerers. Babylon wasn't desolate until centuries later by about the 2nd century BCE (cp. Jer. 51:11; 34-43). Or there's the prophecy against Tyre. Ezek. 26:7-14 says, among many things, that after the conquest and plundering of Tyre, it would never be rebuilt (v. 14). It was. 
• 

  jonathan dough

  A. Introduction
  
  B. Historical Overview
  
  C. Overview of the Controversy
  
  D. Servitude
  
  E. The seventy-year prophecy at Jeremiah 25:11 did not apply to Jerusalem and Judah alone but to all nations which fell under the domination of the Babylonian Empire. These nations as a unit, comprising the Babylonian Empire collectively, served the king(s) of Babylon seventy years.
  
  F. The servitude referred to at Jeremiah 25:11 whereby the nations which fell under the domination of the Babylonian Empire would serve the king of Babylon seventy years included a) vassalage, b) willing exile, and/or c) forced captivity and exile.
  G. The nations' seventy years of servitude ended in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon fell to the Persians and Medes while the exiles were still in Babylon, thus bringing to a conclusion the servitude prophecy at Jeremiah 25:11, before the Jews returned home.
  
  H. The seventy years could not have ended when the exiles returned to Judah in 537 B.C.E. because there existed no king of Babylon to serve for two years between 537 B.C.E. and 539 B.C.E., after Persia began its reign in 539 B.C.E..
  
  I. The phrase "and all this land must become a devasted place, an object of astonishment" at Jeremiah 25:11 does not mean a) the land Judah, and Jerusalem, would exist without a single inhabitant, b) for a period of exactly 70 years, c) beginning with Jerusalem's destruction.
  
  J. The devastated condition of Judah does not mean it existed in that state without a single inhabitant.
  K. The devastation of Judah and Jerusalem at Jeremiah 25:11 referred to its devastated condition after Jerusalem's destruction and during the many years before that city fell.
  L. The Bible shows that Judah was "a devastated place, an object of astonishment" during the years leading up to Jerusalem's destruction.
  
  M. The fulfillment of the "devastations of Jerusalem [namely,] seventy years" at Daniel 9:2 refers to the end of Babylon's seventy years of world domination and the technical end of Jerusalem's devasted condition. It does not mean that Jerusalem - and by extension Judah - was devastated (without inhabitant) exactly seventy years.
  
  N. Further Reading and Acknowledgements
• 

  jonathan dough

  From: http://www.144000.110mb.com/directory/jehovahs_witnesses_directory_beliefs.html

  Witness for the Truth
  http://144000.110mb.com/607/index.html
  
  jwfacts.com
  http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/607-1914.php
  
  144000.110mb.com
  http://www.144000.110mb.com/607/index.html
  
  towerwatch.com
  http://www.towerwatch.com/articles/the_1914_doctrine.htm

  jwrcovery.org
  http://jwrecovery.org/2009/09/did-jerusalem-fall-in-607-b-c-e/

  freeminds.org
  http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/chronology/607-bce-the-bible-or-the-formula.html

  jehovah.net.au
  http://jehovah.net.au/607.html

  mmoutreachinc.com
  http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/586_607.html

  carm.org
  http://carm.org/1914-ad-607-bc-586-bc-and-jehovahs-witnesses
  
  oodegr.com
  http://www.oodegr.com/english/istorika/israil/587a.htm
  
  607v587.com
  http://www.607v587.com/
  
  2001translation.com
  http://www.2001translation.com/607.htm
  
  thetruthaboutthetruthaboutthetruth.blogspot.com
  http://thetruthaboutthetruthaboutthetruth.blogspot.com/2005/11/jerusalems-destruction-587-or-607.html
  
  guidetosalvation.com
  http://www.guidetosalvation.com/Website/jw-destruction_of_jerusalem.htm
  
  all4jesus.wordpress.com
  http://all4jesus.wordpress.com/2008/02/24/the-destruction-of-jerusalem-586bce-or-607-bce/
  
  quotes-watchtower.co.uk
  http://www.quotes-watchtower.co.uk/607_b_c_e.html
  
  paradisecafediscussions.net
  http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=2081
  
  jwstruggle.com
  http://www.jwstruggle.com/?p=697
  
  christianlibrary.org.au
  http://www.christianlibrary.org.au/cel/documents/cults/jw1914.html
  
  jwstudies.com
  http://jwstudies.com/When_Did_the_Jews_Return_to_Jerusalem.pdf
  
  jwstudies.com
  http://jwstudies.com/Seventy_Years_of_Servitude.pdf
  
  culthelp.info
  http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=345&Itemid=8
  
  reachouttrust.org
  http://www.reachouttrust.org/articlePDFView.php?id=110
  
  theapologeticfront.com
  http://www.theapologeticfront.com/2010/04/did-70-years-end-in-539-bce-or-537.html
  
  oodegr.com
  http://www.oodegr.com/english/istorika/israil/587a.htm
  
  witnessing.info
  http://www.witnessing.info/a206194-reform-movement-disproves-core-doctrine-of.cfm
  
  reachouttrust.org
  http://www.reachouttrust.org/articlePDFView.php?id=142
  
  corior.blogspot.com
  http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/change-of-606-to-607-bc-as-start-of.html
  
  jwrecovery.org
  http://jwrecovery.org/2009/09/did-jerusalem-fall-in-607-b-c-e/
  archive.org/
  http://www.archive.org/details/1914TheTouchstoneOfTheWatchtower
  
  607v587.com
  http://www.607v587.com/websitepage4.htm
  
  The Gentile Times Redonsidered
  http://www.scribd.com/doc/40379782/The-Gentile-Times-Reconsidered
  
  user.tninet.se
  http://user.tninet.se/~oof408u/fkf/english/furulirev1.htm
  
  forum.bib-arch.org
  http://forum.bib-arch.org/ancient-israel/where-josephus-supports-a-607-bc-destruction/?wap2
  
  kingscalendar.com
  http://www.kingscalendar.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=viewnews&id=177
  
  diggingsonline.com
  http://diggingsonline.com/pages/rese/books/comment/1914.htm
  
  immanuelmankato.org
  http://www.immanuelmankato.org/bibleclass/sunday00/14_judahs_end.htm
• 

  garyneal

  You've got a lot of research to do but the best suggestion came from Black Sheep.

  Make her do all the work, it is her religion that is asserting these claims. Why should you have to prove anything to her? If she really believes that you are going to die at Armageddon for not accepting their religion as the truth, then she should be motivated to show you the evidence that supports her claims.

  My wife has still not proven 1919 to me yet. I overheard her saying something to her father concerning it (so it sounded as the discussion between them was low and the kids were being kids) and it sounded as if her father was suggesting that the effort was futile on me. I'm not sure what to say on that, I am fully prepared to show her (them) any evidence they need in support of my decision. Why do they feel it is a futile effort to show me evidence to support 1919?
• 

  Black Sheep

  My wife has still not proven 1919 to me yet.

  They need reminding now and again ........ especially if they get culty on you

  Why do they feel it is a futile effort to show me evidence to support 1919?

  This is something they need to be questioned on. They need incentive. They need to feel guilty if they don't do it. You have to make it clear that if they can prove selection in 1919, that you have no choice but to but to admit they have the Truth and that your children should be raised in it. Keep that ball in their court. Guilt, guilt, guilt.