NEED HELP Proving that 607 BC is false and list of flip-flops

by doubtful 39 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • doubtful
    doubtful

    This post is going to seem erratic to some, but I'm afraid it's the best I can do. I can only write on this board during the spare moments I have when my mother is not in the home. So I need to get as much info in per thread as possible given the time constraints. I can't always regularly check the board either, except for a few minutes a day at the most if I'm lucky (oops can't use that word...I mean "fortunate"...oops that means the same thing as "lucky" lol).

    I've made some progress with her regarding 607 BC not being the actual date for the fall of Jerusalem, but she still insists that we're living in the last days, and she still believes that the Governing Body are God's mouthpiece, although she always has a selective memory about certain claims they make. I need my argument to be clearly articulated, linear, easy to follow, and hole proof. I need evidence for all the secular sources used to establish that Jerusalem DID not fall in 607 BC. As of now, all I have are claims that I make to her verbally based on the reasearch I've done, but if she asks for sources, I obviously can't point her to an "apostate" source. She also buys into the "light getting brighter" excuse for changed doctrine. Yet the light getting brighter excuse cannot be used for doctrinal flip-flops. So I need a list of flip-flops, along with watchtower/publication articles as sources for those flip-flops. I also need to establish the errancy of the bible. So if anyone has a list of conclusive self-contradictions, copyist errors, numerical mistakes, logistical or temporal impossibilites, and unfillfilled bible prophecies (like the 40 year desolation of Egypt), that would help tremendously as well. I would also like to know if there is a Watchtower publication (name and date of article) which clearly states that there has always existed a "faithful and discreet slave class that continually passed on "spiritual food" from one generation to the next", as that will aid in establishing that Russell did not receive spiritual food from any predecessor and thus undermine the credibility of the FDS doctrine.

    So in summary...I need help with the following: (Please consider this a joint research project, or for those of you who already have the information readily available, if you share it, I would be most thankful.)

    • List of secular evidence proving that 607 BC is a false date (the cunieforms, Ptoelmy, business records, etc...-but I need sources or website names that I can reference that can't be traced to an apostate website)
    • List of doctrinal flip-flops and revised interpretations made only subsequent to the failure of predictions that never materialized as well as major doctrinal reversals or changes
    • List of Biblical errors (unfulfilled prophecies, logistical and numerical impossibilities, so-called "copyists errors", internal self-contradictions, etc)
    • Information on the FDS doctrine - ie. - Watchtower quote or quotes which state that the FDS has always existed since the time of Jesus...and has always provided spiritual food to each succeeding generation

    I know this is a lot to ask, but perhaps if this thread takes off, it will also provide a wealth of information to all future lurkers and newbies as well. Your help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

  • Amelia Ashton
    Amelia Ashton

    Hi Doubtful.

    I found this very useful. It uses just the Watchtower CD rom to prove it is not 607BCE. Hope it helps.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrCleOXkYu0&feature=player_embedded

    Amelia

    xxx

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    Amelia - Love that little Youtube vid.

    Where are Spade and Djeggnog?

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    I've made some progress with her regarding 607 BC not being the actual date for the fall of Jerusalem

    What progress? Have you had her try to draw you up a king list?

    Get her to look up the lengths of the reigns on her own WTCD or library.

    she still believes that the Governing Body are God's mouthpiece

    Ask her when they were chosen. Ask questions that lead her back to supporting her claims with 607

    You don't actually need to provide evidance for anything. She does. It's her religion making the claims. Her magazines give the reigns of the kings. Make her do the addition. Make her provide the documentation for anything that her 'selective memory' remembers.

    It doesn't work if you tell her what she doesn't want to hear and show her information she doesn't want to read, so just ask questions and request proof until she tells you what you want to hear.

  • diamondiiz
    diamondiiz

    Here is some info you can research yourself. I'm sure there is a lot of info on this site if you use the search engine. I found some links to the tablets that you might find useful but that was through real quick search so I recommend you do your indepth research as I don't have too much time right now as well. Gentile Times Reconsidered is what you want to read, it's worth every penny!!!! Without 607BC there is no 1914 and without 1914 there is no 1919 where GB claims the FDS were chosen. You can ask your mother how she feels that they preached 1874 for at least 50 years before changing that to 1914? Also Russell used 606BC (606+70) as Cyrus first year where he added 70 years to get 606BC which they changed to 607BC in 1943 but instead of moving 1874 to 1975 they kept 1914 - why? Because there was a ww1 which they needed some sort of event to point to???? Also now instead of Cyrus' first year they use Cyrus' second year for Jewish release from Babylon to arrive with 607BC. (539-2+70) Confusing, but any thinking individual will see through the BS!!! Hope some of the below info will be helpful.

    http://www.livius.org/babylonia.html

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/40379838/The-Gentile-Times-Reconsidered - I'm not sure if this book is in full or partially quotes, but you should buy this book as it goes in great depth of factual proofs and explains why wts 607 is a myth. A must read

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Babylonian_dynasty

    http://www.kingscalendar.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=viewnews&id=173

    Berossus

    Ptolemy canon

    Babylonian Chronical (b.m. 92502)

    Babylonian Chronical (b.m. 25127) - establishes Nebopolassar

    b.m. 21946 - Nebopolassar followed by Nebuchadnezzar

    Uruk List

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    If you use the search box on this forum you'll come into much that has been revealed about the WTS. bogus calculation

    involving the destruction of ancient Jerusalem.

    The bible is full of scripted lies created by men who were trying to bring some level of relevance to their god they worshiped

    namely Yahweh . Its also full of scripted lies by men who were also trying to create some important relevance to themselves

    as being designated seers. 2000 thousand years forward and now we have men who own and operate a publishing house who are

    also trying to create some important relevance to themselves, once again as the all incumbent designated seers to the spiritual world.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Doubtful, does your mother really want you to give that level of detail about 607/587? The info contained in the video Amelia posted might be simplest and most effective - overloading her will probably be counter-productive. Also, Black Sheep's suggestion that she do all the work to back up her own claims and beliefs is an excellent one.

    If you do want more detailed background (in addition to the links already given), you may be able to glean something useful from this old thread - http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/85117/1/Babylonian-Business-Records. Particularly take notice of Alleymom's and AlanF's posts.

    Regarding flip-flops, try http://www.quotes-watchtower.co.uk/flip-flops.html - your WT CD Library should track down specific refs. Also http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/changed-watchtower-teachings.php (the 'generation' one's a good one as it's still fresh in JWs' minds).

    It's also worth knowing that when Jesus allegedly rewarded the 'faithful and discreet slave class' by appointing them over all his belongings in 1919, the 'faithful and discreet slave class' didn't realise they were a 'class' until 1927 (Rutherford later said it began to be revealed sometime after 1922). Until that time, they officially believed that Russell had, as an individual, been appointed to that role. In other words, Jesus had rewarded them and they had no clue he had done so for years after the 'fact'! All this can be found in the period literature.

  • Spade
    Spade

    The target audience you're probing for information loaths the idea of divine intervention in contemporary society. There's plenty of evidence that reveals where we are in harmony with Jehovah's timetable, a timeline of events apostates choose not to bear witness with even though the evidence is crystal clear. Apostate fighters of God will take any and all measures to obscure where the Bible reveals we are in the stream of time.

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    I wouldn't pay attention to whatever Spade says on this thread or any other, she/he has pointedly come out and said that he/she was never a JWS.

    Since JWs are indoctrinated to lie for the sake of the organization, you can expect to hear bucket full of incredulous dishonest lies from

    this person concerning anything to do with the JWS and the WTS.

    One of the most stupefy glaring points of misinformation about this 607 debate is that it is solidly confirmed by

    archaeological records that Nebuchadnezzar didn't take the throne of Babylon until 605 BCE, two years after the WTS. says

    the event of overthrowing Jerusalem, his father Nabopolassar was in power in 607 BCE.

  • Kahlua
    Kahlua

    Here is a list that I like. It was done by Leonard Miller -

    http://users.oeccwildblue.com/millerlr/PivotalYear1988SodomGomorrah.pdf

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