Why I think Jesus spoke against Organized Religion

by sabastious 59 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    It's well known Jesus was against humans judging humans.

    If so, it must be well known from some other source than the Bible. The text that everyone loves to take out of context, and upon which this thread is based, is Matthew 7:1 - "Judge not, that you be not judged." However, if the context is read, it becomes quite clear that it is not judging per se that Jesus opposes, but hypocritical judgment. He goes on to say: "For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you." Then He goes on to the famous passage about the speck in your brother's eye and the log in your own, which He concludes by saying: "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." Now, it seems quite obvious to me that , since He is using this illustration to make a point about judging, His closing statement requires that we make a judgment. We can't remove the speck from our brother's eye unless we have judged that there is indeed a speck in his eye. The problem is that we tend to notice his speck more than our own log, because we are hypocrites - and I submit that all of us are, to some degree.

    In another chapter of Matthew, Jesus actually discusses discipline within the church:

    Mat 18:15-20 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them."

    Again, this is clearly an area in which Jesus requires judgments to be made, and, in fact, He seems to be advocating a system of organized religion. There needs to be an organized church of some kind for this sort of procedure to be carried out. While I disagree with the sort of extreme actions carried out by the JW organization, there appears to be a requirement for the church to remove members under certain circumstances (treating them like any other non-member, not with extreme shunning).

    Taking a single line of the Bible and using it to wash away many other plain texts never leads to a correct understanding. This is characteristic of JW reasoning - they do it all the time with a variety of doctrines. Also, even if Matt. 7:1 were not being taken out of context, I think it would be reading way too much that is not stated into the text in order to find a blanket condemnation of all organized religion there. Jesus was clearly not opposed to organized religion. He participated in the organized religion of the synagogues and He specifically spoke of founding a church. He was, however, vehemently opposed to hypocrisy in any form, and there's no question that organized religions have seen a lot of hypocrisy over the last 2000 years. The problem, though, is the hypocrisy itself, not the concept of organized religion.

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    We can't remove the speck from our brother's eye unless we have judged that there is indeed a speck in his eye.

    So you are saying that removing a speck from someones eye symbolizes judging that person.

    It's one thing to evaluate someone's actions and offer advice, it's entirely something different to enforce some action based off of your evalution.

    I really don't want to get into a semantics debate.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    No, I don't think he was at all. I think the Jewish leaders had fallen away from what God wanted them to be. From the love and mercy he expected them to follow.

    Yeah, he was. He knew that Judaism had had it's time. He was raised a Jew and practiced as a Jew. Then he turned from those teachings and taught something completely different.

    That's an apostate.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

    Interesting excerpt. Jesus ate with tax collectors and he made sure the Gentiles had provision for salvation before he left as well. So what does that even mean?

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    Again, this is clearly an area in which Jesus requires judgments to be made, and, in fact, He seems to be advocating a system of organized religion.

    I think he is advocating close fellowship. If a good friend of yours was doing something potentially harmful to himself would you not try to help him? And if he didn't want help would you not try to enlist others to try to help him?

    Calling that organized religion is follly. That is just friendship, imo.

    I think Jesus was utilizing the church for a good cause, not advocating it as necessary.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    there appears to be a requirement for the church to remove members under certain circumstances (treating them like any other non-member, not with extreme shunning).

    Care to define what "treating them like any other non-member" means if it doesn't mean shunning?

    -Sab

  • Mad Dawg
    Mad Dawg

    What are we to do with Gentiles and tax collectors? Point them to Christ. Jesus ate with them to bring them to Himself. Preusumably, they wanted to hear what Jesus had to say. Jesus didn't force them there. If they didn't want to be there He just let them go. We are to love the "Gentiles and tax collectors" - not shun. We are to pray for the lost. Forgiveness is also in order, but we don't give them the opportunity to do it to us again.

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    We are to pray for the lost.

    Funny thing is, no one can agree on what being "lost" constitutes.

    How about something like "pray for all, because we could all use some help in some aspect of our lives."

    Why does there have to be the Lost Ones and the Saved Ones?

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    The problem, though, is the hypocrisy itself, not the concept of organized religion.

    No, the problem is Organized Religion because absolute power corrupts absolutely. And Organized Religion always finds a way to dull out absolute power to someone.

    -Sab

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    The fact that those who personally had hung out w jesus didn't do anything, religiously, for 30 yrs after his death syas a lot. It wasn't until organizer/activist paul came on the scene that religion started to happen, books written, etc.

    S

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