My Son is studying the lie, this is long but I need help !

by oldflame 87 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  glenster

  The mainstream view of what's meant by Father, Son, and Spirit has a
  much better case for having been what's meant by a belief in the
  Bible. What I have on it is on pp.6b-10 at the next links, which give
  the JWs leaders' stances and manglings of the mainstream views and
  manglings of history, and the actual mainstream views and actual history.

  The JWs leaders' make a pretense that rationalism decides the case--
  why it doesn't.
  http://glenster1.webs.com/gtjbrooklyn6b.htm

  Translation concerns
  The most notable thing the JWs leaders change is "Lord" to "Jehovah"
  in a lot of cases mainly to prevent the reader from thinking Jesus was
  prayed to as Lord.
  http://www.freewebs.com/glenster1/gtjbrooklyn7.htm

  Stances on verses
  Notably the bad case for Jesus = Michael, Jesus prayed to and worshipped and
  referred to as the Lord of the Shema, even "My God and my Lord" (three of the
  notable ways 1st cent. Jews indicated belief in God were prayer, worship, and
  the "one God one Lord" Shema, all three appied to Jesus in the NT).
  http://www.freewebs.com/glenster1/gtjbrooklyn8.htm

  Related history
  Where the earliest writers with the best connections indicate which view they
  believed in, they indicate the basic mainstream view.
  http://glenster1.webs.com/gtjbrooklyn9.htm

  How the two views compare
  The mainstream view has the better case because....
  http://www.freewebs.com/glenster1/gtjbrooklyn10.htm
• 

  jonathan dough

  Ignore those who deny the Trinity. It has solid footing, strong Biblical support, and the weight of the evidence is greatly in Christendom's favor. 2,000 years of profound Christian theology back it up, a sea of books and studies, and libraries packed to the rafters with supporting evidence. It's a no-brainer. You just have to do your homework and learn what it really teaches. You can start here: http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#1 They haven't really been debating the issue 2,000 years as they like you to believe. The issue was settled for the vast majority of Christians back in the 4th century and just recently some fringe heretical groups have resurrected opposition to it in the form of such theories as Arian Subordination, which is basically what the JWs teach. It all starts with the issue of whether Jesus was, and is, God, which he was and is. And, that he was not just a man, (and that it is impossible for the Word to have been a created angel) which is the Jehovah's Witnesses' most profound heresy. Read the proof texts: http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#20

  SUMMARY

  “The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one God, who exists in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. These three persons share the one divine nature. They are equal, co-eternal and omnipotent. They are distinct from one another: The Father has no source, the Son is born of the substance of the Father, the Spirit proceeds from the Father (or from the Father and the Son). Though distinct, the three persons cannot be divided from one another in being or in operation (Oxford Dictionary of the Bible [New York, Oxford University Press, Inc., 2005] 1207) (Oxford). With minor changes, the reformed Protestant churches have essentially adapted the Catholic teachings on the Trinity Doctrine (see section 12).

  Central to the doctrine that God is three Persons in one nature is the premise that “Jesus is God,” a term which causes great confusion among the Jehovah’s Witnesses who unfortunately do not understand what is meant by this Trinitarian phrase or what the Trinity doctrine teaches. One of their more bizarre errors lies in believing that Christ is a created angel who became man and after the resurrection reverted back to being an angel.

  The Jehovah’s Witnesses have published countless pages of criticism of Christian Trinitarianism, teaching that it is the work of Satan and utterly illogical. This relentless attack, however, is based upon certain misconceptions and falsehoods allowing them to capitalize on many unsuspecting individuals’ ignorance of accurate Trinity dogma.Three of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ false teachings are particularly misleading and form the core vehicle for the dissemination of gross distortions.
  
  First, they do not understand that a "Person" is not a material human being like you or I. Persons of the Trinity are spirit. Secondly, they do not understand that God is "three" in one sense, and "one" in a completey different sense. And third, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are unwilling or unable to acknowledge or grasp the concept of the hypostatic union, the union that is the God-man Jesus, who is fully God the Son and fully man, a divine Person who assumed a human nature. Intertwined with this concept is the often ignored principle that the created humanity of Jesus is not God. Accordingly, Jesus, the man in the God-man equation, could pray to His Father and acknowledge His Father’s superiority without committing any doctrinal contradictions. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, on the other hand, teach that the incarnate Jesus was nothing more or less than a man.

  This treatise begins by shining a light on the worst of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ misunderstandings, and goes on to explain in greater detail what the Trinity doctrine actually teaches. From there, many of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ arguments against the doctrine of the Trinity are disposed of in light of more accurate teaching, after which a further examination is made of scriptural support for the Trinity in the Bible.

  A major section is then devoted to select Bible verses that prove that Jesus was, and is, God, followed by a brief summary of early Trinitarian theology which provides us with a better understanding of the doctrine’s foundation. The concluding section is devoted to the issue of Jesus Christ being a created angel.

  The Jehovah’s Witnesses, whose religion is essentially 4th century Arian Subordinationism (see section 41) have said many things about the doctrine of the Trinity that are simply not true. Out of a sense of common decency and respect, those who propound and believe in the doctrine and people who seek to understand it better are entitled at a minimum to a fair hearing on the issues, which is the primary goal of this work.

  But before you begin, it is very important to understand two simple concepts which lie at the heart of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ errors; the difference between immanent Trinity and economic Trinity, and how their religion has commingled them resulting in untold confusion.
• 

  flipper

  OLD FLAME - Sorry you are experiencing this with your son. Listen, to be perfectly honest- arguing doctrine with Jehovah's Witnesses is like beating your head on a brick wall. If your son is being indoctrinated , perhaps a better tactic would be to appeal to him just as a father in a non-religious or non-doctrinal manner. The bigger issue of your son studying with the witnesses isn't necessarily the false doctrines he's learning- but the cult mind controlling tactics being used on him to take away ANY critical thinking ability he has.

  Two really good books to assist helping family members who are joining cults are Steve Hassan's " Combatting Cult Mind Control" & " Releasing the Bonds - Empowering People to Think for Themselves ". If you can eliminate he TACTICS being used to dupe your son - his belief in the doctrines will fall by he wayside later. Your son is NOT in control of his thinking - the JW's are and the person studying with him. Just my 2 cents. Hang in there, Peace out, Mr. Flipper
• 

  ziddina

  Everyone's given great advice...

  Here's my pitiful attempt - keeping in mind that I'm NO bible scholar, but I do tend to scream "BS!!" when I smell it....

  Get your hands on the July 2009 Awake. Go thru the article, "The Bible's Viewpoint - Is It Wrong to Change Your Religion?"

  Have him research the Jehovah's Witnesses' shunning practices.... Ask him why it is all right for people to change their religions TO Jehovah's Witnesses, but if a Jehovah's Witness changes their mind about continuing within the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and tries to leave, they will be ostracized and condemned as an evil unbeliever and apostate... This often happens if a Jehovah's Witness even ASKS a question not approved and given by the Watchtower Society...

  This article, published by the Watchtower Society, is, in light of their vicious shunning practices, one of the most mind-bogglingly flagrant pieces of blazing hypocrisy I've ever seen in my life...

  Whatever you do, tread lightly. Act like you're sincerely interested. Use genuine curiosity about the Watchtower organization's procedures to highlight their two-faced behavior...

  And, do a LOT of research on your own.. And pray. A lot...

  I wish you the greatest, life-oriented success in your efforts. And that your son see thru the B.S....

  Zid
• 

  GLTirebiter

  Along the lines of what Flipper and Ziddina said, concentrate on how WT policies affect relationships among family and friends and the cooercive, un-loving tactics they employ to control the members and the members families. Don't make their predictions about "opposers" come true, continue to be the good and loving father to your son. Arguing over doctrine is dead end in several ways: not only are you unlikely to convince him, but you're also expending the good will you've built up over the years. Family ties are more imprtant than doctrine. That's why I suggest not following the WT script: instead of resistance, offer unconditional love.

  I hope it gets better for you.

  GLT
• 

  Blue Grass

  I don't know what will work in getting your son not to join the JWs but I know what won't work and that's defending the trinity doctrine. Once he finds out that doctrine is false I don't think he'll listen to anything else you'll say after that.
• 

  oldflame

  Wow so many replies. All I can say is Thank you everyone I found so much information in your post. I can not describe how much everyone here is apreciated. I am going to use a lot of what everyone said and I will follow up as this goes along. I just do not want to loose my son to these lying bastards, the WTBS !
• 

  jwfacts

  Your son has done what is very common with Witnesses and presented a single Scripture, taken a very simplistic viewpoint of it and then made out he has dis-proven the Trinity in doing so. I think your response is great because it shows you have taken the time to evaluate what you believe and have a strong reason behind it.

  As others have said though, it is unlikely that a doctrinal debate is going to change the mind of another person. As Hassan advises:

  "It is important to understand that in most Bible-based cults, although the member is aggressively taught doctrine, it is not the doctrine that holds him in the group. It is the sense that the group is God's true people, a feeling cultivated by techniques of mind control. Thus, to engage the cult member in a Biblical argument or discussion is often futile." Stephen Hassan, Releasing the Bonds p.145

  Therefore, the advice of others to highlight the danger of belonging to a high control religion will be more likely to have an eye opening affect.
• 

  oldflame

  Well we have had some discussion it sounds like he has his own mind. That could be good or it could be bad I don't know yet but this is our conversation.

  He wrote me and said ;

  You must not be listening to me because i told you this has nothing to do with jw you keep bringing it back to them every scripture i showed you was from the niv bible the one you said you use i studied on my own to show these scriptures this has nothing to do with jw if you have common sense you can understand the scriptures without anyone telling you anything i dont need jws telling me i can see the truth on my own

  I replied back ;

  Hi Son,

  Okay I did not know that, I only know that you are studying with them and I also full well know what they do and what they teach. I hope that you do understand how vital this is if you get involved with a cult religion. That's all ! I am so glad that you have your own mind and yes I know that you are very capable of understanding what you read in the scriptures , but the one thing they teach the most is that the governing body in Bethel New York are the only ones capable of that and it is them who give the understanding to the flock. What a bunch of crockery, the bible was written for anyone to read and understand it is a proven fact that the bible is the easiest book to read and understand.
  I love you and I care about you deeply, you are my son my flesh andblood and darn it I care when oneof my kids are about to get involved with something very dangerous. not a physical danger but a spiritual danger. Please just make sure of all things before you go believeing them. I can show you with their own writings in their magazines where they have lied to their flock many many times. They have made predictions and what does the bible say about predictions ?
  Deuteronomy 18:22 says If a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord and it does not happen then the prophecy did not come from the Lord.

  Son they have made claims of the end of the earth several times and when you ask them about it they reply that it was just a rumor but I can get copies of watchtowers that says differently that they actually set a day month and time for christ return. They have done this many many times since 1864. They even built a house for Christ and wore their best suits on that day because they thought Jesus was coming.
  Son the scriptures clearly say that no man knoweth the hour or the day but he did give us thing that would tell us when we are getting close. I must say that scriptural prophecy has been happening faster and more today than it ever has.

  They tell their followers not to smoke but do you know that they have stock in Phillip Morris ? Yes and I can prove it ! Did you also know that they have stock in Rand who builds weapons for the military but don't you dare join ! They call the United Nations the wicked Beast (satan) but yet they were members of the United Nations until they got caught and they are no longer a member this was just a couple of years ago that this happened.
  Then to top it all of the one thing that really pisses me off to no end ? Child Molestors go free in that religion ! Why ? Because they have a two witness rule. Lets say that mom and dad find out that brother bill molested their daughter. They go to the Elders then the Elders go to Brother Bill and ask him if he did this. There is only the accusations of the daughter and no other witness. Well if Brother Bill says no I did not do that, then the parents are instructed to forget it because he did not admit it and there was only one witness. So then the parents decide to go to the police and report the crime the Elders then come to them and say why did you not follow instruction by the Elders do you not trust us ? Then sometimes the parents can be disfellowshipped. Now a lot of states have recently passed laws that those who are high archy in the religion do not report to the police that they can now also be prosecuted. I can show you where there is at this time right now over 250,000.00 law suits right now going on for people who were molested as children against those who committed the acts.
  The crap goes on and on and on. I can show you their lies to the people and their evil control they do. Do you realize that if you do join and then later find out that what I have been telling you all along was true and you leave ? They kick you out and shun you yes thats right if you get disfellowshipped Grandma can no longer have a relationship with you because you are now considered a apostate. In the bible a Apostate is someone who leaves God but to the witness it is someone who leaves their religion you see they believe that their religionis God and the 12 men in Bethel New York are the same as God.
  Anyway I am just saying be very careful and know full well what you are getting involved in. I am a Christian and I have one faith, that faith is in Christ and I know that I cannot get to heaven or everlasting life without him in me. I was baptised twice first time into the Mormon religion which is also a cult and then once in a Christian church the same as you son.
  I have studied scripture for many years and I know the bible well so please do feel free to discuss it with me, I would welcome that....VERY MUCH !
  Love Dad

  And so lets see where this leads us, he will either be very mad at me or he will at least consider what I have said.
• 

  ziddina

  Uh, oh.... Again, keeping in mind that I'm a rather shallow person and that I'm probably sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong...

  I do believe I might have worded my response to a son of my own just a BIT differently... Maybe like so??

  "Well, Son, I am very interested as to which Bible you've used to find these scriptures in. Personally, I prefer [X] version/translation. What is it about your bible [whatever translation] that you feel represents the meaning and spirit of the ancient Christians more accurately?" [leave it an OPEN question, WITHOUT a hint of sarcasm - I hope!!]

  [Whatever the reply...] "Y'know [word whisker...], Son, I never thought about that. Just out of curiosity, what does your translation say about [uhm, having trouble picking a topic here - as I said, I'm no Bible scholar] - brotherly love?"

  [Son's response]

  "Well, that's enlightening! However, it's always been my understanding that the bible was written for ALL to understand. As Jesus said, "As you recieve freely, so also give freely..." [AGAIN, I'm NO bible scholar... You can probably come up with many more scriptures; the point/focus I'm driving at is this - any scriptures you can quote that state that the bible is freely open to all, without any SPECIAL interpreter or mediator other than Jesus himself - or something similar...]

  [Son's response or dissent, asserting the need for the Watchtower Society to interpret the bible for mankind today...]

  "Fascinating. But, Son, that worries me just a bit. What about all those Christians who lived before the Watchtower Society existed? [Perhaps briefly mention that Watchtower Society is only 130 years old; that they ALSO believed in many things that the current Watchtower now calls "part of Babylon the Great"...] Who interpreted the bible for them?"

  [Son's response will be something to the effect that God's holy spirit interpreted for them among early Christians and down thru centuries.]

  [This is where you will need to do some research. The Watchtower Society occasionally quotes early Christian authors; if you can find one who is quoted within Watchtower literature, whose early Christian writings included theological ideas that the Watchtower Society would consider 'apostate' if spoken of today, I'd quote him/them. When doing so, FIRST quote the portion that the Watchtower Society used in their - hopefully recent - publications, and then slip in the rest of that early Christian's beliefs...]

  [Wouldn't hurt to then ask...] "What do you think of that, Son? What if this early Christian, who the Watchtower Society has quoted as an authority within their own literature, were to stand up in Bethel in front of the Governing Body and make these statements to them?? Do you think the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society would approve of this man's words?? What would they do with him if they didn't? Would they kindly allow him to continue "dwelling in the house of our Lord" [some such scripture...] as mentioned here in [X] scripture?? Would they listen to his spiritual wisdom? What has happened to present-day Jehovah's Witnesses who may have brought out such points to their Elders within the congregation? Have they met with approval, or did this become a cause for them to be 'shunned'?"

  [Wait for son's response...]

  "Well, Son, I can agree that God's organization on earth must be kept clean, but remember that we're discussing the thoughts of an early Christian who had accepted the fine sacrifice of Jesus' blood so as to become part of his heavenly 'bride'... [You might quote the scripture that describes the things that early Christians were to keep pure from - something to the effect that "We favor adding no further burden to you brothers, only this: that you keep yourselves clean from things (meat??) sacrificed to idols, and from men who lie with men, and from blood. These things we exhort you to, but nothing more..." HEAVILY paraphrased, and not too accurate, but you get the idea...]

  "If this early Christian accepted Jesus' sacrifice and became part of his heavenly 'bride', then, according to the Watchtower Society's teachings, he must now be residing in heaven with Jesus as part of that 144,000 heavenly bride class, right? [I think you can see the potential openings here... ]

  [Then discuss with your son the Godly qualities of love and forgiveness. Say something to the effect of...] "Wouldn't you agree, Son, that this fine, righteous early Christian had much wisdom to offer modern Christians? But you can see that many of his comments would have caused him to be ostracized by the Watchtower Society, wouldn't they? Do you think it's right for the Watchtower Society to harshly expel members who have stated such opinions, instead of showing Christian love and patience with them?" [Perhaps quote the scriptures that state that "God is love" - and more of that scripture than the Watchtower usually quotes! Also, someone onboard recently quoted the scripture about "If I speak in tongues, and perform great healing.... but do not have love... then I am but a sounding cymbol,... I am nothing..."]

  [Others here will be much better equipped to advise you as to which topics to pick. If it were me, however, I'd pick topics that are somewhat 'iffy' - without a direct slap/confrontation - no references to pedophiles or military service at this point...]

  [Maybe get started with an actual translation of the Greek scriptures, ESPECIALLY using a Watchtower translation - pick up an older version, if you can... That way, when your son quotes scriptures from the Watchtower bible, you can counter with quotes from THEIR translation from the original Greek... It will reduce the quantity of scriptures you can dispute, since even THAT version of the Watchtower 'direct' translation has been strongly slanted to THEIR interpretation, but there are enough discrepancies between their own translation and what they SAY it says that you might be able to rattle your son's confidence in the WTBTS' "divine infallibility" (which, of course, they'll deny any claim to...)

  I don't know whether you're familiar with the Watchtower Society's mandated style of 'reasoning' with 'interested' ones, but in re-reading what I've written, I realize that I've picked up/replicated that style, to an extent. All those years suffering thru their Kingdom Ministry School are 'paying' off...

  I suspect that replicating their STYLE of speech while using your more accurate information would help you to be much more effective in slipping ideas past the Watchtower Society's mind-control techniques, into your son's mind...

  As before; hope this helps... Zid