Jonestown cult and the JWs

by jonathan dough 75 Replies latest jw friends

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  jonathan dough

  It is natural for anyone associated with JW's to believe that there are only two cults in the world, JW's and Jonestown, just like others who have abandoned cults think its their cult and Jonestown.

  I'm not one of those people. I'm fully aware that other cults exist. My focus is on this cult.

  I think it is important to realize that while anything is possible, anything isn't probable. Jones took his Motley Crew over to an island for isolation. JW's are an international conglomerate with over 100 branch offices around the world. The only plausible way they could do mass suicide was to all move to one island, say, Hispanola for example. (in other words, it isn't happening)

  I see the odds as somewhere between mere possibility and probablilty, close enough to cause concern. And I'm not suggesting the event would be the same logistically, no need for an island, but as far as isolation, the JWs are one of the most isolated and insulated groups on the planet.

  Is it your belief that all cults will end up like Jonestown? If so, isn't it rather peculiar that only Jonestown and Heaven's Gate are the only mass suicide cults of note, each much smaller, and frankly, much different then JW's?

  No. And when you add up all the bodies piled up at the alter of the Watchtower, it actually surpasses these two cults you mention. When you get to college, which I hope you still want to pursue, you might learn of other mass suicides througout history. I have no opinion on whether other cults will go the way of Jonestown, but that is diverting the issue. We're talking about the JWs. And just to make it clear, I never stated as a matter of fact that they would. I'm concerned about the direction they seem to be heading and the possibility that might happen.

  there are also undeniable differences between Jonestown and JW's that make a direct comparison or worries about how JW's might end worthless.

  Don't be so sure of that. I never stated there weren't undenialble differences, of course there are. But to claim that being concerned is pointless is a bit presumptuous. That is the attitude they took with Jonestown, and look how that turned out. Cults take different forms. Take Hitler's Nazis. They don't all die of natural causes.

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#25
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  jonathan dough

  Anyone who thinks JW's are a threat to the world is a person who is delusional and in need of professional help.

  They are a threat to themselves but that does not grant them any special rights. They are a threat to people they mislead into joining. You're diverting again, a typical JW tactic.
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  AllTimeJeff

  Just a couple more thoughts on the matter while it is top of mind.

  Former JW's who wish to expose the WTBTS and the GB need to be mindful that what they fear about what could happen doesn't matter. Without seeing and pointing out the shades of gray, former JW's can (and sometimes do) appear hysterical in their own right.

  The GB counts on this. They can't battle reasonableness and level headedness. Which is why 2 of the most powerful weapons against the borg has been CoC and freeminds.org. These are 2 places and two people who deal with the real issues without going overboard.

  I say this, not to upset Dough or anyone who agrees with him. But consider for a moment that since Jonestown, you have also had 2 other cults that spectacularly went down in flames, David Koresh's cult (literally) and Heaven's Gate. This year, that weird sexually abusive cult in Texas went down, and their leader got charged for sexual assault on multiple people.

  These are the kinds of cults that spring to people's mind when they hear the word "cult". And JW's understand this. Part of their propaganda is to point out that they wouldn't (couldn't) do this.

  Frankly, they are too big and scattered. Esp in the West would it be impossible to to pull off a "kool aid", lets all die together scenario.

  We all know JW's who would obey such a command. But I place these ones in a real small minority. Most wouldn't.

  What disturbs me, and why I am opining on this as I am, is that the premise lacks reasonableness to me. That doesn't mean if you agree with Dough that you need mental help as some unhelpful posters here have stated.

  But I do think a more realistic view of the whole situation is called for. To make that kind of judgment just because both Jonestown and JW's are cults is to ignore just how different the groups are, in spite of their similarities.

  To argue for this does no real good in exposing the real faults of the GB and the WTBTS.
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  jonathan dough

  I think you are being rude for no good reason in a discussion that merits no rudeness whatsoever.

  Okay by me. Spew away. I've got a few zingers stored away myself.
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  lovelylil2

  These figures do NOT even include all the people who died due to the WT older organ transplant ban;

  Estimates of maternal death rates among pregnant women:

  We have found two reports to date: one from the U.S. and the other from the UK:

  • Dr. Carl J. Saphier led a study at Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York, NY, of the maternal death rate among Jehovah's Witnesses. The report indicates a death rate of 521 deaths per 100,000 live births--a rate nearly 44 times higher than that among the general US population. The precision of that number is in doubt because it was based on only two deaths. Sr. Saphier said "The findings imply that special care is required for women who are Jehovah's Witnesses, including special counseling prior to delivery, methods of minimizing the blood loss at delivery, and fast treatment for any hemorrhage." 4
  • A 2004-SEP UK report, the Confidential Enquiry into Maternal Deaths (CEMD) stated that:

  "... the very high risk of mortality in women who refuse blood transfusion was highlighted. 11 The death rate in this group was 1 per 1,000 maternities compared with an expected incidence of less than 1 per 100,000 maternities. 12

  Computing the average of these two reports, the maternal death rate:

  • among those refusing blood transfusions is about 310 per 100.000 births.
  • among the general population is about 6 per 100,000 births.
  • is about 70 times greater for those who refuse blood transfusions.

  Marvin Shilmer posted the following calculation to the Jehovahs-Witness.com discussion forum:

  "Assuming an annual birth rate of 20 per 1,000, and based on the Watchtower organization's annual statistics, over the period of 1995 through 2006 there were at least 1,455,000 births among Jehovah's Witnesses. Assuming these women presented themselves as refusing blood, this translates into 1,455 deaths during this period." 12

  If all had accepted transfusions when needed, only 21 might have died. The Jehovah's Witness' policy on blood transfusions thus cause on the order of 10 preventable deaths a month, 120 a year, within their organization.

  The Watchtower is continueing to be responsible for many deaths each day. They have already surpassed Jonestown in number of deaths.

  What I find so hypocritical is how they make the rank and file "blood guilty" by not bringing in converts by they are the ones with REAL BLOOD of thousands upon their hands and yet they don't seem to care. The Watchtower is a pure, evil cult,one of the worst of all history. Jonestown pales in comparison to this death cult. Lilly
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  jonathan dough

  Anyone who thinks JW's are a threat to the world is a person who is delusional and in need of professional help.

  First hand experience: Turning away the starving who come knocking at the Kingdom Hall door, handing them a pamphlet instead, and the congregation loudly applauding such behaviour at the next meeting. As God is my witness, the Jehovah's Witnesses don't have the slightest clue what is in the Bible or what it teaches. Not even the NWT.

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#24
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  jonathan dough

  Lilly said: Assuming these women presented themselves as refusing blood, this translates into 1,455 deaths during this period." 12

  If all had accepted transfusions when needed, only 21 might have died. The Jehovah's Witness' policy on blood transfusions thus cause on the order of 10 preventable deaths a month, 120 a year, within their organization.

  The Watchtower is continueing to be responsible for many deaths each day. They have already surpassed Jonestown in number of deaths.

  What I find so hypocritical is how they make the rank and file "blood guilty" by not bringing in converts by they are the ones with REAL BLOOD of thousands upon their hands and yet they don't seem to care. The Watchtower is a pure, evil cult,one of the worst of all history. Jonestown pales in comparison to this death cult. Lilly

  --------------------

  Thanks for finding that, Lilly. Folks better start sitting up and paying attention to where this thing is headed.

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#25
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  jonathan dough

  annoying double post
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  lovelylil2

  How can JW's NOT be a threat to the world???

  Thousands die due to no blood transfusions

  The suicide rate is astronomical

  The only thing keeping them from actually killing us all off is that we have "worldly" laws, they HATE non witnesses so much they WISH they could kill us but cannot and that is why they SHUN us AS THOUGH we ARE dead!

  They are a death cult and one of the largest HATE groups of All TIME! Are you kidding me with this "they are not a threat to the world" WHAT WORLD are YOU living in.

  Glad to get that off my chest, now peace Lilly
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  jonathan dough

  I say this, not to upset Dough or anyone who agrees with him.

  There ain't nothin you could say that would upset me.

  To argue for this does no real good in exposing the real faults of the GB and the WTBTS.

  The real faults? If you don't think this is one of their real faults .... sheesh.