space.com dates Noah's flood to 2350 B.C.

by aChristian 251 Replies latest jw friends

  • rem
    rem

    aChristian,

    If what you say is true about the Epic of Gilgamesh and this meteor, then it seems that the Gilgamesh account is more accurate than the Bible. Which one is really inspired, then? Why were the birds taken along in the supposed ark if it were just a local event? (Good question, Gweedo)

    You see, whether any a flood happened or not, the Epic of Gilgamesh is still just an old myth. The same is true of the Bible's story(stories) of the flood. It doesn't matter if a myth is based on real events - it's still a work of fiction. It's not an inspired account from god.

    It seems to me that since you accept Evolution and that the first chapters of Genesis can be taken figuratively, why not take the flood legend figuratively as some sort of lesson?

    It just seems such a silly belief to hold on to.

    rem

    "We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Rem,

    You wrote: If what you say is true about the Epic of Gilgamesh and this meteor, then it seems that the Gilgamesh account is more accurate than the Bible.

    I don't think so. If the flood was caused by a series of meteor impacts as the Gilgamesh Epic seems to indicate, those impacts most likely did not occur until Noah and his crew were safely closed up inside the ark. The Genesis flood account probably recounts the eyewitness testimonies of Noah and one or more of his family members, as passed down to the Hebrew people for many generations and finally consolidated into one account by Moses. Thus, their recollections could not have included any mention of the meteors which filled the skies right before the flood began. However, some in adjoining lands which were not totally destroyed by the flood, as Noah's land was, would not only have survived the flood but would have been in a position to witness and recount both its cause and effects. They would, no doubt, have also heard the story of a man in a flood-devestated neighboring land who managed to survive the flood by being forewarned by God to build an ark. However, since the writer of the Epic of Gildamesh was not an eyewitness to the events which transpired in the land of Noah, and since he probably heard Noah's story only after it had been corrupted by several retelling, it certainly makes sense that he ended up getting several of its details wrong.

    You wrote: Why were the birds taken along in the supposed ark if it were just a local event? (Good question, Gweedo)

    Genesis 7:3 plainly states that the reason Noah took all the various kinds of birds on the ark was to keep their kinds alive throughout the land. The Bible tells us that while Noah's land was being flooded it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, presumably quite hard. It is doubtful that any kind of bird would have tried flying through such a downpour. They would have waited for the storm to let up before taking off in search of a dryer place to live. However, before that storm let up Noah's land was completely flooded. Though Noah's flood was not global, it probably looked that way to those on board the ark. From what I have read most advocates of a local flood believe the waters covered well over 3,000 square miles, an area about 60 miles from west to east and about 100 miles from north to south. If Noah had not taken the birds of his land onto the ark and somehow some of them managed to avoid drowning until the rain let up enough to fly away, how many of them would be able to fly those distances without taking a rest on dry land? With such things in mind, I tend to believe it was necessary for Noah to take birds onto the ark in order to preserve alive all the different kinds of birds in his land.

    However, it may be asked, "Why was it necessary for Noah to take any kinds of animals onto the ark to preserve their 'kind' alive in his land?" After all, few, if any, species of animals were then indigenous only to Noah's small part of the world. Certainly once Noah's land dried somewhat, it soon became populated with the same kinds of animals coming from other lands which Noah took onto the ark. So then, why was Noah instructed to take all of the different kinds of animals in his land onto the ark? Again, I can only repeat my belief that Noah did so because God intended him to prefigure Jesus Christ, who the Bible tells us "sustains all things." (Hebrews 1:3)

    You wrote: Whether any flood happened or not, the Epic of Gilgamesh is still just an old myth. The same is true of the Bible's story(stories) of the flood. It doesn't matter if a myth is based on real events - it's still a work of fiction. It's not an inspired account from god.

    You might try preceding such statements with the words "I believe."

    You wrote: It seems to me that since you accept Evolution and that the first chapters of Genesis can be taken figuratively, why not take the flood legend figuratively as some sort of lesson?

    So far as evolution goes, I do not take Genesis figuratively. I take it quite literally. For it does not say that God "created" vegetation or animal life. It says that "the land produced" both. (Gen. 1:11,24) Besides, the Bible's story of Noah has all the earmarks of an actual historical account, including providing its readers with chronological information enabling them to firmly date the event to 2350 B.C. I do not believe that the writers of scripture intended us to understand the story of Noah as pure fiction and intended for it to only be taken figuratively, as some sort of a lesson. If they had, I do not believe they would have dated it in the same way that they dated many other events recorded in the Bible, events which they obviously intended to be understood as actual Jewish history.

  • clash_city_rockers
    clash_city_rockers

    larc writes: snip
    "Since the thread had a theme, re: Noah, I wondered if you could address the questions I asked. In your own words please. If you want to provide information from someone else, could you provide a link, rather than cut and paste a long message. This is considered standard protocal, and for you to do otherwise would be UnChristian."

    The standard for what is christian and what is "UnChristian" would be in the bible. I would like a text and charge please. But since you have rejected the bible YOU HAVE NO STANDARD to say what is christian and what is unchristian.

    cheers,
    jr

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    . If the flood was caused by a series of meteor impacts as the Gilgamesh Epic seems to indicate, those impacts most likely did not occur until Noah and his crew were safely closed up inside the ark.

    You speak as a man made stupor by the opiate of religion. Wake up man, read what you write. It is insane. It is, as rem said, silly.

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    When I said "Noah and his crew were safely closed up inside the ark," I did not mean the ark provided them safety from meteor impacts. I meant it provided them safety from flood waters. Obviously if a large meteor had hit the ark or struck the earth any place close to the ark Noah and all aboard the ark would have perished.

    You wrote: You speak as a man made stupor by the opiate of religion. Wake up man, read what you write. It is insane.

    What part is insane? Is it my believing that a part of southern Iraq was once flooded with water several thousand years ago? Or is it my believing that a few people in a large boat could survive such a flood? Or is it my believing that God warned them of the coming flood and advised them to build a boat in order to survive it? Or is it simply my believing in God?

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    It's the part were you twist and pound and bend and soak until more bendable, and form, and heat till more bendable, and mold and shape and bend somemore, the slightly clear words of the bible to fit an event that may or may not have happened, just so that you don't have to quite clinging like a frightened baby to the teets of your imaginary spiritual mommy/sky daddy. Btw, that ain't God I'm refering to, your entire concept of God is based on the bible.

    That is just plain silly. Now can we finish off that damn book so that another generation doesn't have to grow up thinking that God wanted a man to be willing to sacrifice his child simply because he thought that was what God wanted? How 'bout a new generation of kids who don't believe that God wanted entire nationalities done away with, and favored one nationality/race almost exclusively?

    Wouldn't that be nice? If you say no, you're scum.

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Six,I've got a better idea. How 'bout if we help the next generation grow up understanding that God asked Abraham to sacrifice the life of his son Isaac to prophetically picture the time when God Himself would sacrifice the life of His Son Jesus, in order to pay for the sins of the whole world? And how 'bout if we help the next generation to understand that God used the nation of Israel as His "chosen people" to illustrate how He treats all nations of people? God blessed Israel greatly when they did what was right, giving to them all He had promised, including a land flowing with milk and honey. To do so He fought with them in battle and helped them conquer all of their enemies. But God also withheld His blessings from Israel and punished them when they did wrong. At times quite severely. God even allowed their holy city to be totally destroyed twice by their enemies. In fact, God punished Israel so often that at times the Jewish people wished that God had "chosen" someone else. So, how 'bout if we help the next generation understand the lessons God taught his "chosen" nation of Israel? How 'bout if we use the history of Israel, as recorded in the Bible, to teach the next generation that if they live their lives unrighteously God will punish them and abandon them to their enemies? How 'bout if we use the history of Israel, as recorded in the Bible, to teach the next generation that if they live their lives righteously God will bless them and fight for them and help them win all of life's battles?

  • GWEEDO
    GWEEDO
    You wrote: Why were the birds taken along in the supposed ark if it were just a local event? (Good question, Gweedo)

    Well, rem. Credit where credits due...I'm just repeating whats already been said. See Janh's article.

    Achristian

    Genesis 7:3 plainly states that the reason Noah took all the various kinds of birds on the ark was to keep their kinds alive throughout the land. The Bible tells us that while Noah's land was being flooded it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, presumably quite hard. It is doubtful that any kind of bird would have tried flying through such a downpour. They would have waited for the storm to let up before taking off in search of a dryer place to live. However, before that storm let up Noah's land was completely flooded. Though Noah's flood was not global, it probably looked that way to those on board the ark. From what I have read most advocates of a local flood believe the waters covered well over 3,000 square miles, an area about 60 miles from west to east and about 100 miles from north to south. If Noah had not taken the birds of his land onto the ark and somehow some of them managed to avoid drowning until the rain let up enough to fly away, how many of them would be able to fly those distances without taking a rest on dry land? With such things in mind, I tend to believe it was necessary for Noah to take birds onto the ark in order to preserve alive all the different kinds of birds in his land.
    I knew you'd answer like this!

    However, it may be asked, "Why was it necessary for Noah to take any kinds of animals onto the ark to preserve their 'kind' alive in his land?" After all, few, if any, species of animals were then indigenous only to Noah's small part of the world. Certainly once Noah's land dried somewhat, it soon became populated with the same kinds of animals coming from other lands which Noah took onto the ark. So then, why was Noah instructed to take all of the different kinds of animals in his land onto the ark? (Hebrews 1:3)
    Exactly

    You beat me to it!

    Again, I can only repeat my belief that Noah did so because God intended him to prefigure Jesus Christ, who the Bible tells us "sustains all things."
    See, I dont get it. This flood killed many people. Both people who rejected Noahs message, and heaps of innocent children who appear to be rather expendable. Also on the fringes of this flood and distasterous meteor impact(one of those articles you put up says was the equivalent of many nuKes) I'm assuming there must have been many people who didn't die, so obviously didn't deserve Gods punishment, but nonetheless would have suffered greatly. Their Crops would have been destroyed, so there would have been horrible starvation. And Floods bring disease too BTW...thats not very nice. And God did all this just to complete some bizarre symbolism. Why didn't he just snap his fingers and strike those people undeserving down with lightning bolts. But no, he had to get all fancy and creative about killing people just so he could have this bizarre symbolism and prefigure Jesus's future actions. It just seems like Gods priorities are around the wrong way. He's putting symbolism ahead of human suffering!

    Also, if he wanted to flood the place for symoblic reasons, and there was no real point taking animals on board. He could have taken the kids that otherwise died in the flood. They were innocent!!! He could have turned the Ark into a giant floating orphanage or something, instead of a zoo...It would have been better than letting kids die horrible deaths in some flood!!!!!!!!!!

    sorry, I dont get it.

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Gweedo,

    You wrote: He could have taken the kids that otherwise died in the flood.

    How could he have taken the kids? Could he have forcefully abducted all of them from their parents? Maybe Noah could have used some of the lumber he was building the ark with to club all the adults on their heads and then, while they were unconscious, he could have dragged their children kicking and screaming onto the ark. I don't think so. One unfortunate fact of life is this: parents often cost children their lives, or ruin their children's' lives, because of the bad decisions they make. The parents who lived in the land of Noah made some very bad decisions. In this way also the story of Noah's flood serves as a lesson to all mankind.

    As I said before concerning the children who died in the flood, God gave us all our lives and has the right to end them at any time he chooses. Every day we live is a gift from God. God is not required to give all of his children the same number of gifts, just as we are not obligated to do so with our children. Also, keep in mind that God has never yet ended a single human life, either that of an adult or of a child. He has only interrupted some lives. For Jesus said, "A time is coming when ALL who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out." (John 5:28) Jesus plainly said that everyone who has ever lived and died will receive a resurrection. Everyone means everyone. Including those who have died in God's judgments such as the flood. We know this because Jesus said that the people who died when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorra will be resurrected. And he said that they will be judged with mercy at that time. Why? Because he said that if the people of Sodom and Gomorra had seen the miracles which Jesus performed they would have repented and their cities would never have been destroyed at all. (Matt. 10:15; 11:23,24) It follows then that the same may be said of the many people, including children, who died in the flood.

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    To those who may be interesested,

    I just received an E Mail from COJ. He says that "within half an hour or so we are leaving home for a week, but I have printed out the articles and the discussions and brought them with me. It would have been interesting to take part in the debate, but unfortunately, I won't be able to connect to the internet during the week we are absent from home."

    COJ is the author of "The Gentile Times Reconsidered" and "Sign Of The Last Days - When?" and a strong advocate of the local flood. It will be interesting to hear his take on all of this. It sounds like we will in a week or two.

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