Clashing Cymbal said:
: all you can do is call names because you lack the dilligence to research these things for yourself.
No, Clashing, I've posted a number of quite serious replies to you, which you completely ignored. Now you have the friggin' nerve to claim I don't do research? You have no idea, Clashing. But I will teach you.
aChristian said:
: Hebrew lexicons tell us that "yom" had "several meanings," including "a period of time of unspecified duration." (see Vines Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, 1985, pg. 54)
This reference combines Nelson's Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament with with Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words in one convenient volume. Page 54, cited above, is from the "Old Testament Section". Under the entry for "DAY" this reference states on pages 54-55:
yôm (yôm, 3117), "daylight; day; time; moment; year." ... Yôm has several meanings. The word represents the period of "daylight" as contrasted with nighttime... The word denotes a period of twenty-four hours... Yôm can also signify a period of time of unspecified duration: "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made" (Gen. 2:3). In this verse, "day" refers to the entire period of God's resting from creating this universe. The "day" began after he completed the creative acts of the seventh day and extends at least to the return of Christ. Compare Gen. 2:4: "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day [beyôm] that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens...." Here "day" refers to the entire period envisioned in the first six days of creation. Another nuance appears in Gen. 2:17, where the word represents a "point of time" or "a moment": "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day [beyôm] that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Finally, when used in the plural, the word may represent "year": "Thou shalt therefore keep this ordinance in his season from year to year [yamîm]" (Exod. 13:10)...The first biblical occurrence of yôm is found in Gen. 1:5 "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." The second use introduces one of the most debated occurrences of the word, which is the duration of the days of creation. Perhaps the most frequently heard explanations are that these "days" are 24 hours long, indefinitely long (i.e., eras of time), or logical rather than temporal categories (i.e., they depict theological categories rather than periods of time).
The "day of the Lord" is used to denote both the end of the age (eschatologically) or some occurrence during the present age (non-eschatologically). It may be a day of either judgment or blessing, or both (cf. Isa. 2).
So here we have a number of specific uses of
yôm in the OT where the meaning, according to the context of the passages, cannot refer to a 24-hour day. Thus, what aChristian said is exactly right.
The multiple meanings of yôm are so easy to see from a cursory reading of Genesis that it's amazing that someone who prides himself on being such a wonderful Bible scholar can fail to see it. In the NIV Genesis 1:5 reads:
God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning -- the first day.
Even the densest of readers should be able to see that "day" is used in two senses here: "day" as contrasted with "night", and a "day" comprised of both "day" and "night".
After reading aChristian's comments and failing to understand anything, Clashing says:
: Well I went to my shelf and check the Vine’s just like you told me, and guess what, it says absolutely nothing what you claim. Let me quote me the reference.
The problem, you twit, is that you don't understand a bloody thing you're reading. The reference you got is somewhat similar to the above-referenced volume, but combines Vine's later writings (published posthumously) on OT words with his original Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words in one volume. This book has been republished many times in many forms. The version I have is quite similar to yours (King James Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words; Thomas Nelson, Inc.; 2001; ISBN 0-7852-4720-3).
In the "Introduction to the Old Testament" at the beginning of Part One of the book, F. F. Bruce writes (p. vii):
This expository dictionary carries Old Testament words not previously published in the format done so well by W. E. Vine in his original work. When Mr. Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words had been finally seen through the press, he turned his attention to a similar project on Old Testament words. He made no claim to the kind of expert mastery of Hebrew that he had of Greek, but he had been for many years a careful student of the Hebrew Bible. At the time of his death in November, 1949, he left in manuscript the material contained here. The words which are treated in this edition are, for the most part, words of theological importance, but the list includes some technical terms and other words of general interest. Readers who have profited by Mr. Vine's Greek word studies will be glad to have this selection of word studies in the Old Testament.
F. F. Bruce
This OT section by Vine does not treat the word "day". "Day" is treated by Vine in the New Testament section, which comprises Part Two of the book. In this section, which was originally published without any reference to Hebrew words, Vine obviously treated only Greek words. Thus, any references to OT passages must have been, not to the Hebrew OT, but to the Septuagint. As F. F. Bruce writes in the Foreword to the 1952 one-volume edition (p. v, Part Two of the above reference):
Bearing in mind the New Testament writers' familiarity with the Septuagint and its influence on their language, he has enhanced the value of his work by giving select references to Septuagint usages.
Now let's see just how Vine explained the various uses for "day" as translated from the Greek word
hemera. On pages 262-263 the noun forms of
hemera are treated:
1. HEMERA (hemera), a day, is used of (a) the period of natural light, Gen. 1:5; Prov. 4:18; Mark 4:35; (b) the same, but figuratively, for a period of opportunity for service, John 9:4; Rom. 13:13; (c) one period of alternate light and darkness, Gen. 1:5; Mark 1:13; (d) a period of undefined length marked by certain characteristics, such as "the day of small things," Zech. 4:10; of perplexity and distress, Isa. 17:11; Obad. 12-14; of prosperity and of adversity, Ecc. 7:14; of trial or testing, Psa. 95:8; of salvation, Isa. 49:8; 2 Cor. 6:2; cp. Luke 19:42; of evil, Eph. 6:13; of wrath and revelation of the judgments of God, Rom. 2:5; (e) an appointed time, Ecc. 8:6; Eph. 4:30; (f) a notable defeat in battle, etc. Isa. 9:4; Psa. 137:7; Ezek. 30:9; Hos. 1:11; (g) by metonymy = 'when,' 'at the time when;' (1), of the past, Gen. 2:4; Numb. 3:13; Deut. 4:10, (2), of the future, Gen. 2:17; Ruth 4:5; Matt. 24:50; Luke 1:20; (h) a judgment or doom, Job. 18:20.* (i) of a time of life, Luke 1:17, 18 ("years")...
Once again we find many and varied uses for "day" in the Greek, and they correspond quite well with uses of "day" in the Hebrew.
I will point out in particular that the above reference is quite explicit that "day" means two things in Genesis 1:5: both "the period of natural light" and "one period of alternate light and darkness".
In an unbelievable show of crass stupidy and/or dishonesty, Clashing thoroughly misrepresents the above full quotation:
: Speaking of Yom the biblical word in Gen 1:5 the Vines says: "a day, is used of the period of natural light Gen 1:5" ---pg 270 Vine's Expository Dictionary of the Old and New Testament, O.T. ed. By F.F. Bruce 1981 Flemming Revell, ISBN 0-8007-1282x
So, Clashing, what do you have to say for yourself? Are you stupid or dishonest or both?
In another incredible display of hypocrisy Clashing then says:
: Mr. AChristian, You lied to us that is very deceitful everyone here who is observing go to http://www.amazon.com and look up the ISBN and get a copy of the book or go to your local library of church library and get check this deceivers claim for yourself.
Having made a complete fool of himself, Clashing then says:
: Well guess what I went to another Hebrew reference and guess what I found that other Hebrew scholars say of the word "Yom"?
Sure, and you completely misrepresented the full extent of what these fine references said. Let's see how:
: I went to the "New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis --- Ed. By Willem VanGemerern ---1997 Zondervon, (in Grand Rapids) ISBN 0-310-20217-5". From vol. 2 pg. 419, speaking of the word yom (3427 NIV Exhaustive Concordance Number since the dictionary is based off the NIV)
: "daylight, day as in (24 hours), eschatological day"
But of course, we know very well that, being a thorough reference, this said a lot more. You simply left it out, just as you stupidly/dishonestly left out most of what Vine's said.
Next you go on to make one of the stupidest quotes I've ever seen:
: From vol. 2 pg. 420, speaking of the Hebrew word yom
: "as a measurement of time the term (yom) has three principal uses. (a) Its primary meaning is the time of daylight as distinct from the period of darkness, the night. For example in Gen 1:5 God called the light day (also Gen 7:4; 8:22; 29:7; Ex 24:18; Ps 139:1...). (b) The term is also used for day in the sense of the complete cycle that includes both daytime and nighttime e.g. Gen 1:5 "and there was evening and there was morning-the first day" (cf. Gen 7:24; 50:3; Lev 8:35; Job 3:6)."
As I showed above, this completely disproves your claim -- that yôm exclusively means a 24-hour day. This once again proves that you either don't read and/or understand the material you post, or you're totally dishonest.
And here comes the biggest faux pas of all:
: "(c) The term day is also used in a variety of extended meanings, for instance, to indicate one's lifetime or reign in his days (Gen 26:1; 1Kings 10:21)"
From the above you manage to conclude the opposite of what your reference proves:
: So you see the word day (yom) according to bible scholars whom you appeal to means a regular 24 hour day. So the proper exegesis of Gen 1 is with in the space of 6, 24 hour days.
Ah! Well then, given that Genesis 1:5 speaks of (according to you) a day as being 24 hours, which obviously encompasses both "the light of the day" and "the dark of the night", how do you explain your claim that "day" means exclusively a 24-hour period? Can you not see that if a "day" is exclusively a 24-hour period, then it cannot include a period of "night"? Just how stupid can a person manage to be?
Next you go on to compound your errors:
: I didn't stop there I went to the "International Standard Bible Encyclopedia" ed. Geoffrey Bromiley, 1979 Eerdmans, ISBN 0-8028-8161-0
:Vol. 1 pg 887
: "The basic meaning of (yom) expresses a division of solar unit of time... The astronomical day was reckoned by the Hebrews from evening to evening (Gen 1; ex 12:18; Lev 23:27,32)"
Do you really think that this disproves what all of the above references say, namely, that "day" has a variety of meanings? Of course you do! But again you've misrepresented your source by leaving out the rest of what it says.
And here you go again:
: Yes, I did some more checking I went to the "Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible-ed. Walter Elwell (bible professor at Trinity Divinity Evangelical Seminary in Deerfield, IL) 1988 Baker Books, ISBN 0-8010-2139-1
: Vol. 2 Pg. 587
: The Hebrew day began in the evening and continued until the fallowing evening (cf. Gen 1:14,19) That kind of literal (24 hour) day is known as a civil day"
: That makes sense given the Hebrew context of Sabbath observance.
But once again you've left out the other meanings for "day" that the Baker Encyclopedia gave. Have you no shame? Or are you just so stupid that you have no comprehension of what you read?
Given your unbelievably stupid performance, Clashing, it's the height of self-deception for you to go on and tell aChristian this:
: Well AC I call you out and exposed you.
At this point every reader except you will see how your words have been turned against you. As I said, you're a scarecrow without a brain. And absolutely typical of ignorant Fundamentalists.
AlanF
