Nehemia Gordon and the pronunciation of the tetragrammaton

by gubberningbody 92 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • possible-san
    possible-san

    Hi, Leolaia.

    Thank you for your reply.

    It was erroneous although I had temporarily misunderstood you.
    You are really intellectual and attractive.

    I have to learn English more.
    It seems that my English wounds someone.
    But I learned at school that my own opinion should be clearly expressed to an alien (gai-jin), and aliens respect the person who express his own opinion clearly such...

    I want to talk with you in English more freely.
    (I spend dozens of minutes, to writing this simple text)

    I hope your dream comes true.
    God bless you.

    possible
    http://godpresencewithin.blog86.fc2.com/

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I wish you well in mastering English; learning new languages is not easy and it takes a lot of practice. I only know a handful of words in Japanese (itae "hurts", atsui "hot", hana "flower", haraheta "hungry", obake "ghost", ushi "cow", watashi "I", etc.), so your English is better than my Japanese! :)

    I'm going to be in Japan in July (I have been there two times before). I know an English teacher (Kay) who teaches English in Tokyo; I will be seeing her and some other people I know.

    My favorite picture I took in my first trip to Japan:

    Cherry Blossoms in Tokyo, Japan, 2003.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    Thank you slimboyfat, the little I could read online from your links is excellent -- and, if I may remark, diametrically opposite to the thrust of WT theology: the theme of the "divine name" (with Yhwh in the background) is indeed essential to both Pauline and Johannine Christologies; in both cases its function is to ascribe divine dignity (whatever that means) to the Son, never to distinguish "God" from the Son as in JW usage.

    I understand Gieschen's argument in particular about the importance of the divine name for early Christianity is very much at odds with JW Christology. Among those who see the divine name as having continued significance for the early Christians it appears that significance can be interpreted in two opposing ways. Either the emphasis on the divine name in the NT transferred divine prerogatives from the God of the Old Testament to Jesus, (as Gieschen, Hurtado and others would argue) or it served to underscore a distinction between Jesus and God, a distinction that was later lost as Christianity moved further away from its Jewish roots. Thus Howard concludes his article on the tetragram in the NT for the Biblical Archaeology Review:

    These examples are sufficient to suggest that the removal of the Tetragrammaton from the New
    Testament and its replacement with the surrogates kyrios and theos blurred the original distinction
    between the Lord God and the Lord Christ, and in many passages made it impossible to tell which
    one was meant. This is supported by the fact that in a number of places where Old Testament
    quotations are cited, there is a confusion in the manuscript tradition whether to read God or Christ
    in the discussion surrounding the quotation. Once the Tetragrammaton was removed and
    replaced by the surrogate “Lord”, scribes were unsure whether “Lord” meant God or Christ. As time
    went on, these two figures were brought into even closer unity until it was often impossible to
    distinguish between them. Thus it may be that the removal of the Tetragrammaton contributed
    significantly to the later Christological and Trinitarian debates which plagued the church of the early
    Christian centuries.

    Whatever the case, the removal of the Tetragrammaton probably created a different theological
    climate from that which existed during the New Testament period of the first century. The Jewish
    God who had always been carefully distinguished from all others by the use of his Hebrew name
    lost some of his distinctiveness with the passing of the Tetragrammaton . How much He lost may be
    known only by the discovery of a first century New Testament in which the Hebrew name YHWH still
    appears.

    Trobisch agrees with this perspective. Discussing the removal of the tetragram from 2 Cor 3:16-18 in particular he wrote:

    As I already indicated, the extant Greek copies of the Jewish Bible from the first century deliberately avoid representing the tetragram with KURIOS. Instead, they use various techniques when they note the name of God, often writing the tetragram in Hebrew letters (see the previous chapter for more on the tetragram). This is what the exemplars Paul used probably looked like. In their effort to standardise the way the name of God was noted, the editors of the Canonical Edition might have introduced the nomina sacra. What worked fine for the Old Testament, however, created ambiguity in numerous New Testament passages that was not present in the traditional material.
    Paul sometimes bases his argument on a quote from the Jewish Bible and carefully makes a distinction between JHWH and Christ. After the nomina sacra are introduced, however, both may be represented as KS and may be interpreted as synonymous by the readers. The meaning of the passage may thus change considerably. [Footnote: This is how Howard, "Tetragram," 78, explains the large number of variants in passages with nomina sacra. Of interest in this context, see P. Winter, "Some Observations on the Language in the Birth and Infancy Stories of the Third Gospel," NTS 1 (1954-55): 113. Winter observes that KURIOS in Luke 1-2 represents the tetragram, whereas in the rest of the Gospel it refers to the person Jesus. He raises the question of whether this constitutes a good criterion for reconstructing an older written source, possibly in Hebrew.] I want to demonstrate the shift using the passage quoted from 2 Corinthians. The text continues, "But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed." It can easily be documented that Christian readers tend to interpret "Lord" as a reference to the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Assuming that 2 Cor 3:16 alludes to the wording of Ex 34:34, and assuming that the exemplar that Paul used contained the tetragram, it may safely be concluded that the following verses contained the tetragram as well. [Footnote: It is not very likely that Paul would have avoided the tetragram to please his Gentile audience. He assumes that his readers are familiar with the Jewish Bible in Greek. As I have demonstrated, the extant exemplars preserve the tetragram in one form or another.] If KURIOS is preceded by an article, the word probably refers to Christ, but in all other instances Paul's original letter showed the tetragram:

    2 Cor 3:16-18 (own translation)
    But when one turns to JHWH, the veil is removed. Now the Lord [Christ] is the Spirit [of JHWH], and where the Spirit of JHWH is, there is freedom. And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of JHWH as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from JHWH, the Spirit.

    According to this reconstruction, identifying Christ as the spirit of JHWH established the connection between JHWH and Christ. Turning to JHWH in the Old Testament is the same as turning to Christ now. Because the "names of God" are represented by nomina sacra, the readers of the Canonical Edition arrive at the same conclusion faster. For them 2 Cor 3:16 means that as soon as Jews turn to the Lord (Jesus), the veil is removed from their reading of the Old Testament.
    The editors did not mind this misrepresentation of Paul. [Footnore: Howard, "Tetragram," 78-82 gives additional examples for the confusion of Christ and JHWH in the New Testament: Rom 10:16-17, 14:10-11; 1 Cor 2:16, 10:9; 1 Pt 3:14-15; Jude 5.] The effect on Christian readers - that Jesus and JHWH become synonymous - was probably intended. David Trobisch, The First Edition of the New Testament, (Oxford University Press: 2000) pages 66 and 67.

    Other scholars such as John Ziesler who do not follow Howard in assuming the presence of the divine name in the original NT nevertheless observe that Paul's arguments in particular often rely upon a careful distinction between Jesus and YHWH when making use of OT passages containing the divine name.

    The more we examine how the use of 'Lord' developed, the more important it is to understand what such lordship meant, both in relation to the people over whom it was exercised, and in relation to the one Lord, Yahweh. A point that has often mistakenly been made is that, because in the Septuagint kurios was the Greek replacement of the sacred name YHWH which was never spoken, Adhonai being used instead, therefore when early Christians called Jesus kurios, Lord, they were granting him the same status as Yahweh. If pressed, this argument proves too much, suggesting that Jesus was Yahweh, an equation never entertained in the early church. Moreover, it now appear that kurios replaced YHWH only in Christian copies of the Septuagint, for the few fragments we possess of Jewish copies put YHWH into its rough equivalent in Greek characters and do not use kurios for the purpose. That leaves the question of what a reader in a Greek-speaking synagogue actually said, and he may well have said kurios because he would not utter the sacred name, and would need some Greek replacement. Moreover Paul himself writes kurios in Old Testament quotations while reserving it for Jesus when he is not quoting. Yet to say that he can use the same title for both God and Jesus, without thereby equating the two, is to restate the problem, not solve it. John Ziesler, Pauline Christianity, (Oxford University Press: 1990) pages 38 and 39.

    Ziesler also wrote an interesting commentary on Romans where he notes the careful distinction made between YHWH and Jesus in Romans 10.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pauls-Letter-Romans-Testament-commentaries/dp/0334022967/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240622776&sr=1-1

    Howard argues that original use of the tetragram makes sense in most of the NT, citing examples from the Gospels, Paul, and the Catholic letters. From the sections into which the NT is traditionally divided only Revelation is not considered, from what I can remember. It's a shame you don't have access to Howard's full article from the Journal of Biblical Literature because it goes into some detail looking at various passages, and their textual variants, considering whether an original tetragram would make sense in the context. A shorter presentation of Howard's argument that was published in the Biblical Archaeology Review can be read online here.

    http://lareopage.free.fr/BARIV1031978.pdf

    Gieschen argues that the divine name continued to central to Christian theology well into the second century CE. This strikes me as problematic if accompanied by the view that the Christian Bible in this early period did not contain the divine name in any form and its substitution by kurios was indistinguishable from other instances of kurios. In such a situation how exactly was the sacredness and distinctiveness of the divine name supposedly maintained? A Christian writer from the middle of the second century is assumed to have 'remembered' that the divine name is central to the Christrian message about Christ despite the fact Christians are assumed not to have written, read or spoken the name during their hundred year history to that point.

  • possible-san
    possible-san

    Hi, Leolaia.

    You know Japanese well.
    When you explained "haraheta "hungry"", I laughed.

    If you say "harahetta", Japanese people will feel that you are quite good at Japanese.
    Usually, "hungry" expresses it as "onaka ga suita" in Japanese.
    Probably you have the power which makes Japanese people laugh.

    About "watashi", there are many expressions in Japanese.
    English "I" can be expressed as "watashi", "atashi" (girl), "watakushi" (polite expression), "ore" (man), "ware" (literary language), etc. in Japanese.

    Thank you for showing the beautiful photograph which you took.
    "Sakura" is beautiful. (And you, too)

    Please travel "Kyoto", if you come to Japan.
    When you go to that place, it teaches us that there is the world which does not have relation with "tetragrammaton" (or, the New Testament, Christianity).
    First of all, most Japanese are not Christians.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBDVDeupbhc&fmt=18

    possible

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Thank you again slimboyfat,

    Imo, and admittedly just from your quotes and links, what strikes me in both Howard's and Trobisch's approaches is the combination of impressive research and theorising with almost incredible historical naïveté and lack of theological sense. What they apparently fail to take into account is:

    (1) the huge diversity of Jewish "monotheism"in the 1st century AD;

    (2) the equally important, but still different diversity of doctrine in the 1st century "Christian" nebula at the same period;

    (3) the fundamental difference of status between Jewish and Christian "scripture":

    (a) Jewish "scripture" (although not yet strictly a canon in the 1st century) is made of centuries-old texts, which exist in greatly different editions but are nonetheless considered mostly intangible, hence committed to professional scribes for transmission. The existence of the commentary as distinct from the text testifies to this among other things.

    (b) Christian "scripture" is still very much in the making and way farther from canonisation; transmission cannot be separated from redaction (or even rewriting), so that the classical difference between "textual" and "literary" approaches makes little sense (at least before Christian commentary of scripture comes up, well into the 2nd century); the "redactors" are not professional scribes because they are something else, i.e. writers, teachers and theologians. When Howard (in the last sentence of his abbreviated paper) dreams of "the recovery of a first century New Testament" (sic!) he might as well be looking for the treasure at the end of the rainbow. What might be found from the first century would be at best pre-canonical forms of some extant NT individual works, which I would bet would diverge from what we know in many things beside "divine names". In literature fiction a bet is worth another...

    A statement which imo betrays an appalling lack of theological sense is the following (Howard's): " Thus it may be that the removal of the Tetragrammaton contributed significantly to the later Christological and Trinitarian debates which plagued the church of the early Christian centuries." Why did "Christianity" emerge (both in and from the fringes of Judaism) in the first place? What was the force (the "ideological agenda," if you prefer) behind the creation of new texts by "Paul," "Mark," or "John" which clearly distinguished themselves from previous Jewish "scripture" and other so-called "intertestamental" productions? One can hardly escape the fact that Christology (of different kinds) was central to their projects and strategies. The "Christological and Trinitarian debates" did not fall from heaven in the 4th century. They were the logical consequences of a religious and literary movement which had posited a second figure within "monotheism" right from the "beginning" (of its "emergence" at least). And it was not initially a break from Judaism since this "second figure" can be traced back to a lot of diverse Jewish literature (Enoch, Philo, Qumran, etc.). Making sense of the relationship of this "second figure" with the "first" one was a common preoccupation of 2nd-century Christianity, with a whole spectrum of "solutions" (from the "Gnostics" and Marcionites at one end, to the "Jewish Christians" at the others, via the apologist Fathers). But "solutions" (including theorised "subordinatianism") were sought because the "problem" was there to begin with: the incipient, massive, Christological affirmation threatening the paradigm of monotheism in the second stage of reflection. Forget about the ambiguity of kurios if you want: you will find the same "problem," essentially unchanged, with a host of other "Christological titles" (theos, theou huios, even huios tou anthrôpou), indeed the whole rhetorical and narrative thrust of most early Christian writings.

    Trobisch's discussion of 2 Corinthians 3:16ff is ingenious; I wonder how he deals with "Paul'"s own commentary in the next verses (if he had not lost them with the "chapter break," I mean 4:3ff): "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not proclaim ourselves; we proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord (kurios)and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus' sake. For it is the God who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

    This is not to say that the divine name couldn't make sense in some instances. I agree with Winter that this is definitely the case in Luke 1--2 (I have mentioned that a number of times before), provided it is considered as a separate unit from the third Gospel as a whole. The "Septuagint-style" of those two chapters have long been noted and the uses of kurios in them are clearly non-Christological. But the "book-setting" modifies the perspective.

  • possible-san
    possible-san

    I said,

    I have to learn English more.
    It seems that my English wounds someone.
    But I learned at school that my own opinion should be clearly expressed to an alien (gai-jin), and aliens respect the person who express his own opinion clearly such...

    I have noticed it recently,
    that people who speak English is using the word "IMO" or "IMHO" skillfully.

    I stated as follows at the start in this thread.

    The reason no Tetragrammaton was described in the New Testament is that Christian did not pronounce the divine name.

    Probably, this text also differed in the impression pretty, if I added "IMO."

    possible
    http://godpresencewithin.blog86.fc2.com/

  • Spike Tassel
    Spike Tassel

    Yes, "IMO" [in my opinion] and "IMHO" [in my honest opinion] are excellent ways to improve the meaning in words on the internet. "IMO" and "IMHO" take much of any possible rudeness away. "IMHO" is maybe not as good, actually, because some think "IMHO" means "in my humble opinion". If someone in English says that he himself is "humble", others will often think that he is "arrogant" instead.

    When a Japanese person wants to say "gai-jin" in English, it is usually much better to say "stranger" or "foreigner". "Alien" is generally a big insult, as if the other person is "from another planet", "does not know what he is talking about."

    I have dictionaries for many languages, including 3 large-pocket-sized Japanese ones. That is why I think I can help someone to improve his English skills. We all have much insight to offer, if we are less personal.

    Rather than stating one's hurt or angry feelings, we appreciate one another better when all are polite and show love and kindness in our dealings with each other. Cultural differences can be very big between English and Japanese. I have had several close friends who are Japanese, also Korean, and Chinese, and Arabic, and Punjabi, and Filipino. Each culture is very interesting if we always try to look for the positive in the other person. In this way, we can change any negative in our mind also, so that it is positive. Knowing some meanings of "san" in Japanese, I see that it is better to be Mr. Possible, than Acid Possible. Acid makes the good go to waste, in my honest opinion. Peace, Mr. Possible.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Looking over your old posts Narkissos is a good suggestion, not to make a judgement but just because they are good reading. And I said the 'quasi-scholar' comment was uncharacteristically mean. I respect you so much and look up to you like a mentor (whether you like that or not) - you were kind to me some time ago when you suggested I read Narcissus and Goldmund and The Outsider - so the suggestion I am writing in bad faith or just poorly is deflating I admit. But I won't make a drama out of it especially since you clarify you are Narkissos of the screen not Didier of the north of France. I didn't think there was a difference but I stand corrected.

    I am sorry about having left the other thread pending. I have thought about replying to you and Leolaia many times and there is much I would like to say. I was just a bit overwhelmed by the sheer volume of it. And I have been reading lots of new information on the subject in the past few weeks. My silence marks trepidation and cogitation, not indifference or disregard for the comments you have both made.

    Furuli is a 'fringe scholar' for this subject for sure, but I don't see how you could justify saying that for any of the other scholars I mentioned.

    John Ziesler's books on Paul's theology are published by academic presses: Cambridge University Press, Oxford University Press, SCM. James Dunn names Ziesler's Pauline Christianity as among the three most popular introductions to Paul in English in his own book The Theology of Paul the Apostle. Ziesler's commentary Paul's Letter to the Romans discusses the distinction made between the Lord God and the Lord Jesus in Romans 10 in particular. He argues that the context shows the Lord God, as source of the resurrection and hence salvation, not the Lord Jesus is in Paul's mind when he quotes Joel 2:32 in Romans 10:13:

    5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

    David Trobisch has also been published by academic presses. He spoke at the academic conference on the Codex Sinaiticus at the British Library this month, alongside scholars such as Eldon Jay Epp, Albert Pietersma and Harry Gamble. The foreword to his book Paul's Letter Collection was written by Gerd Theissen. I don't think he can be relegated to a lunatic fringe. He argues that the Tetragrammaton was originally used in the books of the NT in his book The First Edition of the New Testament, where he also explores the origin of the nomina sacra at some length.

    And I think you are unfair to George Howard on the other thread when you infer he did not appreciate there was not a New Testament as such in the first century. He was a professor of Religion who was published in peer reviewed journals - I think he deserves some credit - and it seems highly unlikely somehow he was unaware the parameters of the NT were not settled in the first century. His perhaps imprecise language in the Biblical Archaeology Review about the first century New Testament may possibly be explained by the target audience in that instance which was the general public not his academic peers. It's certainly true his theory about the Tetragrammaton originally being in the writings of the NT was not embraced by other scholars when it was published - by hey maybe he was just ahead of his time.

    And there are many prominent scholars who support aspects of the argument for the Tetragrammaton being in early Christian texts. Emanuel Tov is now in print rejecting Albert Pietersma's view that kyrios was used in the original LXX, instead supporting Paul Skehan's argument that IAW was the original rendering. Textual scholars of the Hebrew Bible/LXX don't come much more senior than Tov. Reading Frank Shaw's dissertation recently convinces me the tide is turning in the direction of those who have argued the LXX and early NT texts used the divine name. The idea that the divine name had fallen out of use by the first century outside of mystical contexts is everywhere in retreat. And the indications from within the NT text itself that there was a continued focus on the divine name, and that there is something amiss with how the extant text employs divine names, is coming more sharply into focus.

    I know by now not to do anything as futile as attempt to compel you to read something you don't want to. But you are asking the question how I can still say there is good evidence the Tetragrammaton was originally in the NT writings despite our previous conversations. I am saying it is because of what I have read by George Howard, David Trobisch, John Ziesler. (And on related subjects: Emanuel Tov, Colin Roberts, Paul Kahle, Paul Skehan, Bart Ehrman, Larry Hurtado, Bruce Metzger, Frank Shaw and many others) This is not "fringe Biblical scholarship", it's just scholarship, for whatever reason, you've chosen not to read.

  • Spike Tassel
    Spike Tassel

    Thanks for this balancing perspective, SBF.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    slimboyfat,

    I won't address your personal considerations, either here on in any part of this public forum.

    I pointed to this thread ("the other thread" in your post) because it already contains a good deal of relevant information and discussion on the central issue about which we obviously disagree, i.e. the alleged original presence of forms of the "divine name" in some (which?) NT texts. The recurrent kind of assertion I do take issue with can be illustrated by the opening post in your "Message to reniaa" thread about 3 months ago (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/173616/1/Message-for-Reniaa): "And then there are those who claim there is no evidence the tetragrammaton was in the original New Testament, when the evidence clearly indicates it was."

    It would certainly be important to this forum that such "evidence," if it exists, should be clearly displayed and discussed, preferably not (only) in the form of miscellaneous bibliographical references mixing this particular issue with related but distinct ones -- such as LXX textual history, NT theologies and christologies and so on. Lists of scholars can be pretty impressive to some -- although limiting them to those who do support the affirmation above would reduce them drastically. Anyway I think JWN posters deserve better than an argument of authority.

    What comes closest in your last post to a specific argument on this particular issue -- although not quite so -- is your reference to Ziesler (who does not believe that the "divine name" in any form was ever in the NT texts according to your previous comments): "He argues that the context shows the Lord God, as source of the resurrection and hence salvation, not the Lord Jesus is in Paul's mind when he quotes Joel 2:32 in Romans 10:13." Now in view of the verbal and conceptual links of the quotation with the context (epikaloumai, v. 12, 14-17, paralleling homologoumai, v. 9-10; kurios, v. 9,12,16, with the particular insistance on this "Lord" being the same, cf. 1 Corinthians 8:6, "one Lord" paralleling yet distinct from "one God"; sozô passive, v. 9), and its rhetorical function in the argument (4 x gar, "for," from v. 9-13), this seems quite a claim which would require solid substantiation. There is no doubt in my mind (or to the vast majority of NT scholars) that in Pauline thought the "Lord Jesus" as "Son of God" is not only distinct but subordinate to "God the Father," so that's not the point: rather, what is Ziesler's argument for taking the kurios of v. 13 non-Christologically?

    However, this is only loosely connected with your affirmation: specific "evidence" that the Tetragrammaton or a transliteration of it must have been used in any particular NT text is what we're after, aren't we?

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