Narkissos....I forgot the reference but I do recall a statement from the fourth or fifth century AD about the Samaritans continuing to "unlawfully" pronounce the name, to the displeasure of Jews within earshot. This gives added signifiance to the Iabe form attributed to the Samaritans, if the latter continued the use the name without break.
Nehemia Gordon and the pronunciation of the tetragrammaton
by gubberningbody 92 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Narkissos
Yave is also found in the NH Apocryphon of John in association with Cain (which is very interesting in view of the history of exegesis of Genesis 4, where Eve conceives Cain "with Yhwh," and the further association of Yhwh worship with Cain's line):
And when Yaltabaoth noticed that they withdrew from him, he cursed his earth. He found the woman as she was preparing herself for her husband. He was lord over her, though he did not know the mystery which had come to pass through the holy decree. And they were afraid to blame him. And he showed his angels his ignorance which is in him. And he cast them out of paradise and he clothed them in gloomy darkness. And the chief archon saw the virgin who stood by Adam, and that the luminous Epinoia of life had appeared in her. And Yaltabaoth was full of ignorance. And when the foreknowledge of the All noticed (it), she sent some and they snatched life out of Eve.
"And the chief archon seduced her and he begot in her two sons; the first and the second (are) Eloim and Yave. Eloim has a bear-face and Yave has a cat-face. The one is righteous but the other is unrighteous. (Yave is righteous but Eloim is unrighteous.) Yave he set over the fire and the wind, and Eloim he set over the water and the earth. And these he called with the names Cain and Abel with a view to deceive.
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TheOldHippie
Possible-san, you are the rudest and most insane since the rape of Nanking.
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slimboyfat
What a hoot guys! Talk about an international incident. Whenever you meet up I want to be there to see it. :-)
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Earnest
Leolaia, the Samaritans were still pronouncing God's name in the nineteenth century. When I say "still" I am not certain that it has been continuous but as they did not feel themselves bound by rabbinical tradition anymore than the Karaites did I think it is reasonable to suggest that they have never desisted from using God's name.
Narkissos, there seems to me there are echoes of the use of God's name by the Jewish Christians in some of the polemic contained in the Talmud and later in the Toledoth Yeshu. For example, there is reference to it being legitimate to burn the books of...I've forgotten the term...but it likely referred to the Jewish Christians...to burn those books even if they contained the tetragrammaton. Also, both the Talmud and the Toledoth Jeshu suggests Jesus was able to perform his miracles by pronouncing the tetragrammaton. These references are not proof but I think there is enough to consider it likely.
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slimboyfat
Is not the LXX fragment of Leviticus dated to the first century BCE that contains the transliteration IAW proof that at least some Jews were regularly pronouncing the divine name at that time? Given that this MS was produced around the time Jesus was alive is it not entirely plausible that Jesus may also have pronounced the divine name, at the very least when reading it from the scrolls such as in Luke 4?
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slimboyfat
My feeling is that Narkissos and Leolaia are simply wrong on this issue. I would really like to have it out some time if they would like to discuss it. There is very good evidence that the tetragrammaton may have been used in the original NT books. The NT is not Christocentric, it is clearly Theocentric, because Jesus is everywhere presented as the gate to God the Father, not the end in himself. The application of the title Lord to Jesus does not indicate he has taken the place of Jehovah, not even in passages like Romans 10. There is little evidence that Lord was widely used as a title for God at all when the NT was composed. Many passages that appear to confuse the Lord Jesus and God the Father make much better sense if we allow that the tetragrammaton stood in the original and was lost early in the transmission. I think it is entirely plausible that NT fragments will be discovered one day with the divine name. Boy the triumphalism in the copy of the WT for that month would be something to behold.
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Narkissos
Earnest,
You might be thinking of the theoretical discussion in Babylonian Talmud, Shabbath 116a-b, about burning the books of minim (a very general term, which may include "Christians" but is hardly limited to them) with or without the "divine names" they contain.
I vaguely remember something in the Toledoth Yeshu but I think it was about using the written tetragrammaton in miracle-working. I'll have to check that later.
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possible-san
TheOldHippie,
Possible-san, you are the rudest and most insane since the rape of Nanking.
Your comment is each absurd.
But you are not so foolish as Mr. Narkissos.
because you can write my name exactly.I do not reply to you any longer.
I appreciate your advice. Thanks.Probably, in this thread, people need your comment about the Tetragrammaton.
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slimboyfat
Count yourself lucky possible-san, at least it appears Narkissos is still talking to you (or at least about you) which is more than can be said for some of us.
