HERE'S A BOMBSHELL ABOUT THE 144,000 DOCTRINE......

by Mary 82 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • still_in74
    still_in74
    Let me get this straight. The 144K in Rev 14 are singing a "new song" and this was supposed to happen in 1914? That can't be right.

    None of the 144,000 were supposed to arrive in heaven until around 1918, 3.5 years after Christ's presence supposedly began. The WT position is that no humans entered heaven until then. I wonder how many chronological inconsistencies this creates.

    no you are right MJ - that was my mistake, this was to have happened in 1919, not 1914 - eventhough they werent all there but would be someday it was as if they were there eventhough they werent and John wasnt either - John travelled into the future and the 144k travelled back into the past to all arrive at 1919 so the WTS could twist together a means to put them in the place of Christ....

  • Mary
    Mary
    Gumby the False Prophet said: K, as soon as I take my nap I'm gonna find a reasonable answer to this apostate Mary chick. There will always be those who try to undermine the food we recieve from the Slave Class and try to pervert it with lies and a play on words. Damn apostate whores of Satan!

    There's me little Gum-bear!!!!

    Sooooo sweetie, did ya think of a viable explanation to their bullshit lies yet?? Or are you still wrestling with angels in your sleep.

  • oompa
    oompa

    Now that my head still hurts....and I have read most of this thread at least 2 times.....I must ask....Why the hey is so much time, effort, and thought being put in this old totally INcredible book?........I just don't get it. Why would anyone ever think their understanding of this gibberish is RIGHT! or BETTER than somebody elses opinion on this gibberish? Could it be that there is not Right or Wrong because it can only just be ALL Wrong?..............oompa.....geeze I must lack faith

  • Mary
    Mary
    MJ said: Let me get this straight. The 144K in Rev 14 are singing a "new song" and this was supposed to happen in 1914? That can't be right.

    None of the 144,000 were supposed to arrive in heaven until around 1918, 3.5 years after Christ's presence supposedly began. The WT position is that no humans entered heaven until then. I wonder how many chronological inconsistencies this creates.

    I can't find a reference in any of the literature to where they say the 144,000 are singing a new song in 1914.......Don't they always say that the resurrection started in 1918???

    Here's a more detailed, ridiculous explanation from the Revelation Climax book:

    re chap. 29 p. 201 pars. 10 -11 Singing the Triumphal New SongHow can the 144,000 sing "before" the elders, since the 24 elders are the 144,000 in their glorious heavenly position? Early in the Lord’s day, those "dead in union with Christ" were resurrected as spirit creatures. Thus, faithful anointed Christians who have conquered are now in heaven, symbolically fulfilling functions comparable to those of 24 divisions of priestly elders. They are included in the vision of Jehovah’s heavenly organization. (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16; 1 Chronicles 24:1-18; Revelation 4:4; 6:11) The remnant of the 144,000 still on earth are therefore singing the new song before, or in the sight of, their resurrected brothers in heaven.

    At this point we might also ask: Why is it that these anointed overcomers are referred to as the symbolic 24 elders as well as the 144,000? It is because Revelation views this one group from two different standpoints. The 24 elders are always shown in their ultimate position around Jehovah’s throne, installed as kings and priests in the heavens. They symbolize the entire group of 144,000 in their heavenly position, although at present a small remnant of these is still on earth.

    Makes perfect sense eh?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Wow!! gumby is in da house! And I heard all these nasty rumors that you went behind the Spaghetti Monster's back to get back in good graces with Jehover. Tell me it ain't true!

  • Mary
    Mary

    LMAO @ Leolaia!!

  • Aurelius
    Aurelius

    Kinda reminds me of the totally illogical explanation provided in the Revelation Climax book for Revelations 20: 7-9 (NWT)

    7. Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison,
    8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma´gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea.
    9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them.

    As most are us a aware the WTBS generally teaches that the 'Holy Ones' are the Anointed / 144,000 / Spiritual Israel, etc and after the Great Tribulation they will be transported up to heaven to rule with Christ. However the above verses mention that the Holy Ones are in fact on earth and will be confronted by Satan. So after reading the verses many will logically conclude that the 144,000 / anointed are still on earth and have not been raptured. After-all who else could the Holy Ones be?

    The WTBS inconsistently explains it this way! Interestingly within the same chapter of the Revelation book two definitions are provided for the Holy Ones. Excepts from the CD-Rom:

    *** re chap. 40 pp. 288-289 par. 8-9 Crushing the Serpent's Head ***

    "And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them." (Revelation 20:4a) Who are these ones sitting on thrones and ruling in the heavens with the glorified Jesus? They are "the holy ones" that Daniel described as ruling in the Kingdom with the One "like a son of man" (Daniel 7:13, 14,18) They are the same as the 24 elders who sit on heavenly thrones in the very presence of Jehovah. (Revelation 4:4) They include the 12 apostles, to whom Jesus gave the promise: "In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matthew 19:28)

    *** re chap. 40 p. 292 pars. 24 Crushing the Serpent's Head ***

    "The beloved city" must be the city that is spoken of by the glorified Jesus Christ to his followers at Revelation 3:12 and that he calls "the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God." Since this is a heavenly organization, how could those earthly forces 'encircle' it? In that they encircle "the camp of the holy ones." A camp is outside a city; therefore, "the camp of the holy ones" must represent those on earth outside the heavenly location of New Jerusalem who loyally support Jehovahís governmental arrangement. When the rebels under Satan attack those faithful ones, the Lord Jesus regards it as an assault on him. (Matthew 25:40, 45) "Those nations" will try to wipe out all that the heavenly New Jerusalem has accomplished in making earth a paradise. So in attacking "the camp of the holy ones," they are also attacking "the beloved city."

    *** re chap. 42 p. 304 par. 12 A New Heaven and a New Earth ***

    The great crowd out of all nations also look to this promise. They too must conquer, loyally serving God until they come out of the great tribulation. Then they will enter into their earthly inheritance, 'the kingdom prepared for them from the founding of the world.' (Matthew 25:34) These and others of the Lord's earthly sheep who pass the test at the end of the thousand years are called "holy ones." (Revelation 20:9) They will enjoy a sacred and filial relationship with their Creator, Jehovah God, as members of his universal organization.- Isaiah 66:22; John 20:31; Romans 8:21.

    In conclusion
    From the above we see that according the WTBS the "Holy ones" can be what ever they decide in order to support their doctrine.

    Either:

    1. Anointed, 144,000
    2. Great Crowd who survive the 'final test'

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    Hi Mary,

    It's good to bring this back up for those who haven't researched much or read the whole Bible contextually and in sequence yet. All Jehovah's Witness dogma that I've ever looked at, even casually, is only supported by three things: (1.) A topical reading of the Bible; (2.) The assumption that Biblical writings have a typical and an a-typical reading; and, (3.) The required serious application of superstitions like numerology and spirit channeling.

    This was the subject of one of my last conversations with my father. I asked him the definition of a Christian, and he said it's a person who does what Jesus did. So, I asked if that means every "Christian" would have to be a Jewish Rabbi, walk everywhere, keep the festivals, preach in the Synagogs, eat with prostitutes, talk to apostates, not get baptized until age 30, and be a political activist?

    I asked him why Paul preached in the Synagogs??

    He said: "I've got another appointment."

    That ended that.


  • M.J.
    M.J.

    Thanks for that Aurelius. This is a very good point as well. Usually good stuff like this toward the end of a thread gets overlooked, but I wanted you to know I'm glad to have seen it.

  • Robert222
    Robert222

    Excellent post Mary. Yrs ago I remember when I was told that Russell thought up the 144,000 as a literal number and all JWs were annointed and expected to go to heaven within Russell's lifetime. Well guess what, more were becoming JWs, exceeding that number..oh, doctrine change to say all the ones becoming JWs are a lower class, earthly, and have to do all the preaching work.

    This religion has had a very good run for way too long. I think the persons hanging on to the JW religion, with their endless explanations of the annointed, and so forth, are just hopelessly brainwashed.

    Then on top of that, the JWs make it a disfellowshipping offense to read "apostate" material. Its like an employee pointing out an error in a document written by his/her boss. In most, normal situations, the error would be corrected, and the employee would not be fired or labeled "disloyal" or a traitor to the company.

    Sorry, but I just think JWs are insane.

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