"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character...

by digderidoo 261 Replies latest jw friends

  • inkling
    inkling
    she accepts the OT as inspired, but does NOT judge the acts of god contained in it. She neither condones them, nor condemns them.
    She says she's Abstaining.

    I would argue: that is not possible.

    Granted, if we were talking about the past recorded actions of a HUMAN entity, this would be entirely fair-
    Like...

    You accuse my grandfather of robbing a bank when he was a teenager, based on a fairly sketchy collection of
    newspaper clippings and police reports.

    I say, I have known my grandfather for many years, and it just doesn't seem like he is the kind of person
    that would EVER do such a thing, and I personally have faith in him as a person and don't THINK he would
    rob a bank. I think that readers today are simply misunderstanding the records... However, since I was not
    there, I will ABSTAIN for judging the situation. I keep my faith in my grandfather, but I can't prove anything,
    so I make NO CLAIMS about the rightness of his actions in the bank incident.

    That seems valid and logical to me....

    However, we are not dealing with a human, we are dealing with GOD, and as soon as you say that this God
    you are talking about is INCAPABLE of unrighteousness, you are categorically asserting that EVERYTHING he
    EVER did was the right thing to do.

    As soon as you say that, you are casting a blanket of approval over every real action ever taken by that God.

    You may say that the record is incomplete, that details got lost, that context matters, etc but none
    of that changes the fact that (for example) Jehovah ACTUALLY ordered that babies be killed, and that
    SOMEHOW, that was the right thing to do, even though you don't understand how.

    Once you claim that God always does right, it is IMPOSSIBLE to abstain from condoning his recorded actions.

    [inkling]

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist

    >> Once you claim that God always does right, it is IMPOSSIBLE to abstain from condoning his recorded actions.

    Unless I misread Snow's position, she doesn't claim god's always right. She claims that she's not in a position to judge whether or not god's right. She referred to the possibility that god may have multiple personalities, so to speak, that may do unrighteous things.

    This is slightly different than others that say, "Everything God does is righteous and it's not my place to tell him it's not." She isn't asserting his righteousness, but rather her lack of authority to make the assertion.

    Hair-splitting? I don't think so. But even if I did, it wouldn't matter. It's HER position, not mine.

    Dave

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    How many rapes actually occurred in the nation of Israel? Based on this law, I daresay hardly any.

    That's a rather Watchtower-like sweeping generalization. Try actually reading the OT before defending it.

    Read the account in Judges 19 & 20. Go on, really read it. Who would dare to say that sex crimes, kidnapping, and murder hardly ever occurred in Israel. Makes Sodom and Gomorrah look rather tame, eh?

    Also, did you ever hear of King David? Remember his son Amnon and daughter Tamar? Read 2 Samuel chapter 13. The son of the king RAPED his own half-sister.

    Want more examples? READ THE BOOK! God had this written so that we know what to expect from his rulership, right? This is the God that Jesus prayed to as his spitting-image father, right?

    I realized that the more I studied the Bible, the less I found to have faith in. I do believe in a higher power, but the God of the Jews I don't believe in anymore.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    AA and Quietly,

    I am going to put this debate into some context as you both do not seem to have read all Snowbirds posts that relate to this particular issue:

    don't have a problem with God. When I read the Bible, I see a Person doing whatever is necessary to protect His people. Yes, there is a lot of blood and gore, but NEVER will you find the Israelites making a God-sanctioned unprovoked attack on other nations. NEVER. <- Incorrect when it came to the Caananites and many other situations

    He warned Egypt and the Canaanites before He executed judgment on them. The soldiers who made up His army were not allowed to have sexual relations while on a campaign. When you see all the war orphans produced and forgotten by soldiers of the U.S. and other countries, you can see the wisdom of this prohibition.

    Much has been made about the complete wiping out of cities and towns by the Israelites. Again, His wisdom comes into play here. For instance, if only the men were killed, what was to become of the women and children? Oh, they could have been taken captive and made slaves to the Israelites, but who wants to be a slave?

    So, how can we chastise God for dealing with people and situations the way He saw fit? Were we there? What would we have done? It is too easy to sit in relative comfort and do armchair theorizing, but as a Native American saying goes, before we judge anyone (God included), we should be willing to walk two moons in that person's moccasins.

    I've found no unrighteousness in the God of the Bible.

    What's this about God's murdering of anyone? I believe the Originator of life certainly has the right to take it away. Especially if the possessor of that life is not using it according to the Giver's instructions.

    The example I at first thought egregious was God's telling His people to wipe out the 7-nation of Canaan. I researched (independently of the Bible, thank you) those nations and found out how truly revolting and appalling their way of life and worship were.

    NEVER said I approved of or condoned any of the battle tactics of the Israelites. Thankfully, that is not my place to do so. I DID say it is not for us to question how God handled His business. You ASSume the Israelite soldiers were child rapists because in Numbers 31 Moses told them to spare the virgins. Did it ever occur to you that these virgins were to become wives of the soldiers?

    Only, and I repeat only, the inhabitants of those cities close by the Israelites were completely wiped out. The women and children of the distant cities were spared. The virgins could become wives of Israelite men and were to be treated with kindness and dignity. < Incorrect when it came to the Caananites

    My purpose in bringing this up is to show the duality of our personalities. Some of us are loving, kind, and compassionate, but, given the right set of circumstances, we can become just the opposite. Conversely, some who are mean, hurtful, and spiteful, given the right circumstances, can also become just the opposite. Does God also have a dual personality? I don't know. I confess the thought of killing and pillaging upsets me terribly, but I no longer question God's actions. I've simply adopted a wait-and-see attitude.

    Apart from the fact that Snowbird is incorrect about one or two theological issues (which I have marked in red type), you will note that the context of debate is firmly rooted in the OT.

    You will also note that Snowbird has on numerous occasions condoned (please see the meaning of the word above) the genocide contained in the OT by DEFENDING the INSTIGATOR. What you seem to be describing as her 'viewpoint' is actually an appeal to an illogical position.

    As I have noted for the fourth time, only three alternatives are open for discussion here as far as I can ascertain, and you have yet to present for argument an alternative one apart from an appeal to 'faith' which is illogical in itself, or an appeal to opinion. Lay faith and opinion aside and read what Snowbird has actually written.

    HS

  • dawg
    dawg

    To all that posted on this thread and didn't read what other posters have written.... that's typical of every damn person I've ever debated the OT god with. Half cocked, non reading JWs I've been around all my life. To see and read people defending the sick wacko God of the OT is amazing... too much focus on rape and murder when slavery is also in the OT... but what the hay... to hear a black lady defned slavery is priceless and the reason I come to this site, just to be amused.

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist

    >> Lay faith and opinion aside and read what Snowbird has actually written.

    Just for a second, imagine that the position I outlined is the one she actually holds. It is a strange position to be in, isn't it? Loving and worshiping a god that other people are calling "monster" because he did things that are monstrous. You know he did them. You know they are monstrous. But you still love him.

    WTH?

    So you try to rationalize it. He didn't kill ALL the babies. Yes he sent the bears after the boys, but where were the parents? People could've chosen to become slaves to Israel, they didn't HAVE to die.

    To me, those sound incredibly hollow. But they aren't Snow's reasoning, they are her rationalizations. She is essentially saying, "I don't think I'm qualified to judge god's actions. So I won't. But if I DID, I'd say...." Everything after "But if I DID" will likely contradict everything before it. That's ok, so long as you understand that everything before it is her actual position.

    You're treating this like some sort of court hearing. "You CLAIM you aren't judging God, but do you deny having said, 'God is righteous'? Do you?!?!?" Snow's not being interrogated, and there's no value in water-boarding her into picking one of the three items on your menu.

    Her position doesn't exactly make sense, at least not to me. That doesn't make it NOT a position.

    Why is it of value to you to say that her stated position is invalid and she must pick a different one? (If your response is, "I told you her stated position, I quoted it to you" then you don't understand her position.)

    Dave

  • dawg
    dawg

    and one more thing snowbird, it is condoning slavery when you say God's always justified in his actions.. if you'd read what other poeple have quoted you, namely Numbers 31, you'll see that the OT God told the Natoin of Israel it was okie dokie for have them and where to get them....you are saying that God is always right in everyting he does, thats condoing God's actions, all of them in the OT... that means you condone slavery... period! I'll not go the circular reasoning road you're wanting all of us to travel... for me you and all that have defended this henious God of yours are disingenious at best.... and defenders of murderers at worst.

    In the words of Forest Gump, that's all I have to say about that.

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    HS, please state the source for your statement in red.

    Yes, there is a lot of blood and gore, but NEVER will you find the Israelites making a God-sanctioned unprovoked attack on other nations. NEVER. <- Incorrect when it came to the Caananites and many other situations

    Let me state my position clearly:

    1. I believe in the God of the OT and that the Bible is His inspired record.

    2. I believe the God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT, Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah.

    3. I believe God is righteous in all His ways even if we don't understand those ways.

    4. I can accept God-sanctioned genocide because of statement #3.

    5. I can accept God-sanctioned slavery because of statement #3.

    6. I can accept all the laws given to the nation of Israel because of statement #3.

    7. I can't judge God as being unjust because my understanding is finite whereas His is infinite.

    8. I have faith that our questions will be answered and our doubts put to rest when He comes again.

    Thank you all; this has been a most revealing discussion.

    Sylvia

  • inkling
    inkling
    Unless I misread Snow's position, she doesn't claim god's always right. She claims that she's not in a position to judge whether or not god's right. She referred to the possibility that god may have multiple personalities, so to speak, that may do unrighteous things.

    If this is SERIOUSLY her position, then you have a good point.

    I have a really hard time buying that this is REALLY her position. Why would anyone worship a schizophrenic god who
    fucks up all the time? I might consider FORGIVING such a God, but I wouldn't worship him.

    Agreed, of the God choices, this model makes alot of sense, but It is in no way the all-powerful all-wise all-loving God
    of Christian theology.

    I really want to hear directly from snowbird on this one....

    edited: her post right before this one answers my question

    [inkling]

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Snowbird,

    Thank you for further clarifying your position, though it has been obvious as you have previously clearly stated your position.

    AA and Quietly,

    I hope that given Snowbird's clarification, that you can now see where you have taken the wrong road in this debate.

    HS

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