Thanks for the replies! And thanks to TheSilence for reformatting my original post. I think I had Automatic Cr/Lf turned off. I'll try again, with that on.
Open mind: I tried watching that YouTube video, but it's been removed for some kind of violation.
I'll look up the "Combating Cult Mind Control" book. Thanks for the recommendation.
Some other things I've noticed that I think are kind of funny. As Mormon missionaries we always referred to JWs as "J dubs" as well. I suppose it's a rather obvious short form, but I always assumed we'd made that up. Too funny.
We sometimes used the term "the Truth" in the peculiar way some of you seem to use it, but a more common Mormon jargon term was "the Gospel", meaning not just the story of Jesus Christ, but more particularly the Mormon Church. You'd hear people say "I am so glad I was born in the Gospel". The Gospel means the good news about Jesus Christ's atonement, but in your average Mormon setting, it'll tend to you get used a lot as a synonym for the Mormon church.
Tyrone van Leyen said: "I don't like using the term apostate. That is a word the witnesses invented to make you feel evil and ungodly. We are simply people who disagree with their teachings and policies and beleive in independant thinking. That sounds so much more civil."
Yeah, I know what you mean, except one correction: Mormons actually invented the term apostate in order to make apostates feel evil and ungodly. :-) Too funny, really, how so ingrained our focus on our particular religions becomes that we even think we invented the English language. In some settings now I'll throw it out there almost as a badge of honor, probably because I now recognize that renouncing one's false beliefs in an honest attempt at finding something closer to objective truth is nothing to be ashamed of, and on the contrary, something to stand up for.
Rebornagain said: "In my last posting I made the comment that there are numerous religions for the numerous varieties of people on this earth and nobody should criticize others for what they believe."
What's funny is that I once hypothesized that the reason there were so many different churches is because there are so many different kinds of people, and that Satan had created a counterfeit "truth" that would appeal to each and every person, in an attempt to keep them from finding the "real" truth, which was of course Mormonism.
Isn't it funny how it's all about the church, when you're in the church? I think JWs are similar in size to the Mormons in that maybe .5% or some of the world believes in it. Imagine the hubris of believing that literally thousands of religions and churches out there were created specifically to provide an attractive alternative for people, to keep them from Mormonism, or from the JWs. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
Eclipse said: "Your story was very interesting to read! There is no difference between the feelings that mormons and JW's have. They have so many similarities, it's like the leaders went to the same ''brainwasher's teacher's college''. The same tactics are used, the only thing that varies is the information taught."
Here's the interesting thing. I'll tell it from the Mormon perspective, but I'm sure it's the exact same thing if you just replace Mormon with JW. A Mormon leader honestly believes it's true. Joseph Smith knew he was making it up as he went along, but his successors actually believed it, and they believe it to this day. What amounts to brainwashing techniques really are, from the perspective of the true believer, merely ways to reinforce the testimony of the Gospel (testimony of the church is more like it). The incessant admonition to be reading the scriptures daily, to pray constantly, to attend each and every meeting each and every Sunday, to serve in what Mormons term "callings", ie: job positions within the church, be it as leaders, teachers, etc. It's all drummed into our heads constantly, to "strengthen our testimonies".
Mormons even have a meeting once per month called "fast and testimony meeting" where the whole purpose is for people to stand up and proclaim their testimony of the church, the gospel, Joseph Smith's prophetic calling, the Book of Mormon, etc. It's as if without the constant repetition of such things, one would "lose" their testimony. And to a believing Mormon, there are few ideas as horrible as the prospect of "losing one's testimony". To lose your testimony is tantamount to being overcome and lead astray by Satan.
I've asked this on another board I participate on. What physicist has to constantly read and re-read Einsteins works or risk stopping believing in Relativity? The notion is absurd, and yet we take it for granted that without constant immersion in, and repetition of, our religious mantras, we'll somehow "lose the Spirit", "lose our Testimony", etc. I guess it's somewhat understandable when you realize that Mormons believe that 1/3 of God's spirit children (which you guys don't believe in) fell from God's presence and are in fact around us all the time as evil spirits, trying to tempt us and lead us astray. How is a testimony of The Truth supposed to survive constant badgering by invisible bogeymen?
I read a comment here in another thread by someone who mentioned their JW elders telling them that "the End" was almost at hand, and to hold on just a little longer. Kind of funny. Mormons no longer are into predicting when the Second Coming will occur, though Joseph Smith firmly believed, or at least taught as if he believed, that it would be during his lifetime. How many of us, both LDS and JW, thought that the Second Coming would occur during our lifetimes? Guess what? Our grandparents thought the same thing. Newsflash: ain't gonna happen.
Happy Harvester said: "It's really amazing how well denial operates, allowing us to accept scientific ideas while still refusing to reject irrational beliefs we hold dear."
On our exmo and critic boards we talk about compartmentalization. It's true there are brilliant people with massive IQs and PhDs in science and every other field who believe in the LDS church. What to do about the fact that the latest official teaching by the LDS church affirms the literal truth of the Noah's Ark story as a global catastrophic Flood, akin to the "baptism" of the Earth? What do you do if you're a PhD geologist teaching at a major university, and your church believes that 4000 years ago or so all of humanity was wiped out in a global, catastrophic flood, except one man and his family, and two of every kind of animal, onboard a ship that somehow contained them, and their provisions, for a year? There's not just a lack of evidence for a flood, but in fact there is strong evidence that directly contradicts the flood story, ie: it proves that it didn't happen. The ice sheets of Greenland and Antarctica are good examples, where yearly snowfalls are recorded in layers of ice going back well over 100,000 years.
Well, if you're in that position, you know that the church is true, but you know the Flood didn't really happen, so you do all sorts of mental gymnastics and start filing away the "religious stuff" in one part of your brain, and "science stuff" in another part of your brain, and just act as if they don't conflict, and simply stop thinking about it. Or some Mormons will just throw their hands up and say "I don't know, but when I die God will show me how it all worked out, and then I'll know." And then we rationalize that hey, this isn't necessary to our salvation, so it's OK if the leaders are wrong about this - after all, they're only human. But when they're actually speaking as prophets, and not as men, then be sure it's the Word of God coming to us through them.
A pity that God has never seen a need to correct his Prophets on Earth in all the matters in which they're simply dead wrong, eh? Hey, who am I to second-guess God? Yeah, I've heard that before. In the end, nothing has to make sense, because God operates in mysterious ways, and who am I to tell God how he has to operate and what he has to reveal to us? Or so I'm told.
For me, it's always come down to the fact that I want to know what it is I believe, and I want to know why it is that I believe it, and I want to feel justified and confident that it's reasonable for me to believe it for those reasons. If it weren't for my commitment to these ideas, I'd still be right there, stuck in the mental flypaper of Mormonism.
greetings fellow apostates!
by SethMo 49 Replies latest jw friends
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SethMo
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GoingGoingGone
I guess it's somewhat understandable when you realize that Mormons believe that 1/3 of God's spirit children (which you guys don't believe in) fell from God's presence and are in fact around us all the time as evil spirits, trying to tempt us and lead us astray. How is a testimony of The Truth supposed to survive constant badgering by invisible bogeymen?
Um, yeah, the JWs believe that too. Amazing how similar the beliefs are!
GGG
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SethMo
I thought you guys don't believe in spirits? LDS believe that we all existed with God as spirits before we were born into physical bodies. LDS belief is that 1/3 of God's spirit children rejected his Plan of Salvation and were cast out, and have forever lost the opportunity to experience having a physical body, being resurrected, and returning to live with God in Heaven. My understanding of JW doctrine is that you guys don't believe we have a spirit, that when we die we cease to exist, and that the resurrection consists in Jehovah restoring the righteous people (the faithful Witnesses, I presume) from backup, ie: recreating them again.
The LDS belief is that these 1/3 of the spirits, who fell, are actually our spirit brothers and sisters, but they have rejected God, and hate him, and us, and are trying to drag us down and ruin our faith, so we won't return to God with the heavenly reward that we could have. These evil spirits are supposedly all around us, and that as we commit sins, think "bad thoughts", and such things, we give them a little more power of us, to blind us from the truth, lead us astray, etc. -
LoverOfTruth
And you know what's cool? It's cool to realize that I really am just like you guys. There's no difference between us in a sense, because we're all people who've come out of two of the thousands of the world's false religions. My church isn't any more non-true than yours, and yours isn't any more non-true than mine. They're both completely and utterly not true, and now, rather than being "special" people, blessed with an honor most people in the world didn't enjoy (membership in God's one true church), we're all just human beings, trying to figure things out and make the most of our lives.
One thing I hated about the JW Religion is the separation of "Us" from the so called "Worldly People"
We're all the Same like you said, "just trying to figure things out"
I keep a plaque on top of my Computer with a Saying of Maya Angelou. "I'm Convinced I am a Child of God, That's Wonderful, Exhilarating, Liberating and Full of Promise!" This daily thought keeps my self esteem up and at the same time, keeps me humble realizing I'm only one member of a very, very large family of humans.
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GoingGoingGone
The LDS belief is that these 1/3 of the spirits, who fell, are actually our spirit brothers and sisters, but they have rejected God, and hate him, and us, and are trying to drag us down and ruin our faith, so we won't return to God with the heavenly reward that we could have.
Oh, ok, it is a little bit different then.
The JWs believe that the spirits who fell are angles who were with God in heaven when Satan rebelled, and when Satan was cast out of heaven (in 1914 ) those spirit angles were cast down to the vicinity of the earth with him. They are "demons" and they are trying to get us away from serving God.
GGG
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SethMo
Of course, what's really funny is it doesn't really matter at all what specific, "technical" differences there are between JW beliefs and LDS beliefs. It's all made up.
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seven006
Sethmo,
First of all the Mormon church did not invent the term “apostate” any more than the JW’s, Adventist, or Scientologist did. They all just use it in their programming process to indicate a class of ex-members who pose a threat to the particular brand of god product that they are trying to sell. The concept and term apostate is as old as the god product itself. http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9044116/Julian
Cults and sects use terminology that they claim are exclusive to themselves so as to enforce their illusion of being “the one and only truth or right one”. Exclusivity is a programming tool used by the advertising industry almost as well as religions. It is use to sell a concept, product or brand the same way they both use endorsement advertising. Tell your ex-Mormon friends on the other boards you post on that continuing to believe the term “apostate” was invented by the Mormons is just another example of how deeply their programming continues to influence their lives after they leave. It takes years to get all the programming crap out of your being.
It’s similar to JW’s using the term “the truth” when referring to the religion they “just” left and the Scientologist using the term “fair game” when referring to hostile interaction with ex-Scientologist.
The Scientologist, Adventist, Mormons and JW’s are very similar in their programming process. Their ex-members are also very similar in the psychological adjustment process once they figure out it’s all bullshit and decide to leave.
Second of all, nice post.
Dave -
Tyrone van leyen
I didn't know you guys invented that nasty "A" word. You certainly do have an inventive religion. I often wondered how the book of Mormon got written. I mean it's so out of this world. I think sometimes that the visions of Joseph Smith were acid trips or visitations from the spirit world. Kinda like taking dictation. The writers of the new world translation put a lot of effort into changing their bible as well and were quite prolific in their writings on aids to understanding the scriptures, but the book of Mormon is out of this world. Like it came from another planet.
This business, of the golden tablets that were supposedly witnessed by seven others is wild. I beleive to that there is a spot in New York to where they make a pilgramage as well, where these tablets were found in the side of a mountain. We make pilgrames to New York too, it's called Bethel. It's where slaves work for peanuts and think they are pleasing God.
The history of Mormonmism reads like a fairy tale from it's earliest beginnings. Leaving where they were from, to go to a place in the desert cuz of persecution and then making the dessert prosper is quite an accommplishment. It is also quite an accomplishment for the witnesses who don't encourage higher education and always dump on the rank and file, always kicking people out and shunning them.It is amazing, that they have not failed. They have in fact become quite prosperous as well. The only difference might be that the org. has become prosperous, rather than the people. But our religion was involved in legal shenanigans since its inception and have surrounded themselves with a team of legal beagles to fight their battles.
They have woven themselves into the fabric of society, while the Mormons have grouped themselves more as a State with a central homeland. I think this is why polygamy still exists in some sects that hold on to there beleifs within there own community.
Our way of doing things, is defended legaly within the country, and yours is more" like a country". I don't know how accurate I am. I'm just making some observations.
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Tyrone van leyen
Sorry 007. I didn't realize we were writing on the same topic at the same time. I reckon you are correct about the origins of the words used to mainpulate people. If anyone has a profound grip on double talk and word play the witnesses take the cake for word usages. How else could it not be. Most of the bloody doctrine is probably poured over by a team of lawyers to assure they dupe the rank and file with there crafty wording. It allows them to escape when they need too, and lay pressure on people at the same time. So long as the rank and file accept the lot that has been given them, they will never see this. I think Mormon pressure tactics may differ but are still as effective as witnesses. They, as Seth pointed out no longer try to predict the end but they still have missionaries that preach. I think they might be able to do this becuse they are not a publishing co that has to push literature for their economic survival. It is more mandaory like military service a part of growing up in the community. Again Seth, I am not a Mormon so forgive me if I err in my observations.
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yknot
Wow,
Thank you for sharing and you open hearted honesty. I always thought yall had shunning based on the few Mormons still left in my area. They are a tight group but I remember the way a friend of mine was afraid to let any "family or church family" find out she had a crush on a non-Mormon, she described something close to our reproofment and DF'ing.