greetings fellow apostates!

by SethMo 49 Replies latest jw friends

  • SethMo
    SethMo

    I should introduce myself, since this is my first post. I'm actually not an ex-JW, but rather someone who has just lost his faith in a different church, the Mormon church. I've long suspected that in terms of the organizational aspects of our two churches, how they hook you mentally, how they condition you, how they socialize you and make it very hard to leave, from an abstract level there's really not a dime's worth of difference.

    The more I read of you guys' struggles and experiences as you realized that the church you might well have been born into and grown up in wasn't really "The Truth" after all, the more I realize that if you just change some JW jargon for Mormon versions, a lot of you guys' stories would be exactly the same as ours.

    I served a full-time LDS (mormon) mission, and where I went, I ran into a lot of JWs. At first I was more argumentative and confrontational, but eventually I took a different point of view. I realized that I was in a country (Switzerland and Germany) where really nobody wanted to hear what I had to say about my religion, and just about the only other people who understood that experience of constant rejection were the JWs. Sure, the JWs didn't have the "real" Truth like I did, but they knew what it was like to actually be a missionary and go through all of that. I actually had a more collegial attitude toward the JWs I would run into on the street after that. I daresay most of them regarded me as some kind of heathen though, not having the "real" Truth like they did. :-)

    Anyhow, I'm in a situation that ought to sound familiar to you guys. I have come to realize that Joseph Smith was not one of the greatest men who ever lived, as I'd grown up being taught, but rather he was a fraud, a charlatan, a player who debauched women in the name of God, who set himself up as a light unto the world, but who, in the end, was making it up as he went along. The problem is, my wife still believes. Most of her family still believes. All of my family believe. We don't have the whole official shunning thing that you guys do, but there's a sort of de facto shunning that a lot of ex-Mormons will experience from members based on fear. It's fear that you've been corrupted somehow, and that it might rub off on them.

    To a true-believing Mormon, the church is so obviously true, and lead by God, that the only way someone can lose that testimony is if they somehow are lead astray by Satan. Who wants to have anything to do with a guy who is under Satan's influence? Can we blame them? Yeah, from the outside, they're brainwashed fools, but from the inside, they're just protecting themselves from the wiles of the Devil.

    So my wife's had a very hard time with this. More than once she's threatened me with divorce. She tells me that this isn't what she bargained for when she married me. She married a man who would lead her to the Celestial Kingdom (the Mormon conception of heaven), and now instead she finds herself married to a guy who not only has no interest in the Celestial Kingdom, but could well pull her down with me. Let me tell you, it's been pretty rough.

    Unlike the JWs, since there's no officialy mandated shunning, we get web forums where defenders of the faith, ie: Mormon apologists, will argue with Mormon critics, including ex-Mormons, about the church, the evidence that shows it's not true, etc. I've been participating on a couple of these boards for some time, and I have to say, it's really amazing just how brainwashed the true believers really are. And that was me.

    I had the strongest possible testimony that the LDS church was true. I knew it. I took it for granted. It was a bedrock value in my life which influenced my thinking about anything and everything. Small chinks in my belief system came up over the years because of things like the debate over Evolution, which I believe is a true description of how species developed, the Noah's Ark story, which I believe is pure mythology, etc. I believed in Evolution, and figured that the LDS leaders, whom we sustain as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators, were simply wrong about it. They were also simply wrong about Noah's Ark. But none of that really mattered, none of it threatened my faith in the church's truthfulness, because those details were not the important ones. They were not necessary to my salvation. What was necessary to maintain faith was believe in Joseph Smith's prophetic calling, which would underpin belief in his church, and a belief in the atonement of Jesus Christ.

    After all, Noah's Ark may not have happened, but if Jesus's atonement didn't happen, then it was all wrong.

    I lived my life with these little chinks in my belief, growing ever so slowly wider, until a couple of years ago. That's when I read some really damning material about Joseph Smith. My faith was threatened. I was scared. I know what it feels like to fear that the belief system one has lived his whole life by is actually not true. When you guys say this in your posts on this forum I know exactly what you mean. I felt it too. It was so hard to accept that I literally had to force myself, as a matter of will, to recognize even as just a possibility that the church might not be true, and let the chips fall where they may.

    That was sort of like a threshold for me. Once I forced myself to acknowledge the possibility, hitherto impossible in my mind, that the church wasn't really true, the whole edifice of my faith crumbled rather quickly. I let the chips fall where they may, and they indicated to me that in fact the LDS church was just as not true, just as manmade, and just as lead by man, as any other church.

    I was raised thinking the LDS church was special. We, alone out of all of the world's religions and churches, actually had The Truth, and that was a very special thing. I used to thank God that I'd been born a Mormon. I imagined, almost with a shudder, what my life might have been like had I not been blessed to have been born into the true church. I imagine a lot of you probably felt the exact same way about the JWs.

    Now I realize that the LDS church is not special, literally. It's not the sole true church on the Earth. It's just one of thousands of non-true churches. It's just one more drop in the bucket of wishful thinking and institutionalized mythology that is the world's religions.

    And you know what's cool? It's cool to realize that I really am just like you guys. There's no difference between us in a sense, because we're all people who've come out of two of the thousands of the world's false religions. My church isn't any more non-true than yours, and yours isn't any more non-true than mine. They're both completely and utterly not true, and now, rather than being "special" people, blessed with an honor most people in the world didn't enjoy (membership in God's one true church), we're all just human beings, trying to figure things out and make the most of our lives.

    I guess if this post has much of a point it's that you guys should recognize that your experiences aren't unique to the JWs. As I've long suspected, these are the experiences that are pretty common to people who somehow manage to free their minds from the flypaper of false religion, or from religion in general. I listened to a podcast a year or so ago from a guy who had left the JWs, and he described his experiences, and I swear if you just changed a few jargonized words, and skipped the official shunning, this story could have been exactly like a guy leaving the Mormons. It's fascinating to me.

    I can't promise I'll participate much on this forum. As much as we have in common regarding the nature of our experiences and the struggles our leaving our faiths causes us, still I don't have the exact same specific experiences that bind you ex-JWs together.

  • SethMo
    SethMo

    OMG. All of my paragraph breaks were lost. Guys, I'm sorry, I honestly didn't just write a solid wall of text, but somehow I've misunderstood how to format the post properly. And I don't seem to be able to edit the post either. Arg, I apologize.

  • tula
    tula

    Welcome to the board.

    Don't worry about your paragraphs. Someone will come in and fix it for you soon. It will be re-posted below. I don't know how to do it, or I would.

    I read your Book of Mormon many years ago.

    And way long before I ever read the book, I had a mormon friend when I was in 6th grade.

    I went to an "ice cream social" with her.

    The one thing that I can say was nice about the religion is the family closeness I saw, and that so many of the functions were centered around including all of the family together.

    I think I have been in almost any kind of church there is. Except maybe the Hare Krishnas

    But alas, we find the teachings in all of the religions are wrong and the motives are corrupt...not just mormons and Jdubs.

    I think there is more heartache and destruction in cult groups than in "christendom" in general. christendom is corrupt, too. You know they are all going to fly out of here and leave the rest of us here to suffer. I think the suffering here has already reached its saturation point. They can go fly anytime!

    SethMo, you have a home here anytime you want to post and talk to someone.

  • TheSilence
    TheSilence

    Hope I put them in the spots you would...

    I should introduce myself, since this is my first post. I'm actually not an ex-JW, but rather someone who has just lost his faith in a different church, the Mormon church. I've long suspected that in terms of the organizational aspects of our two churches, how they hook you mentally, how they condition you, how they socialize you and make it very hard to leave, from an abstract level there's really not a dime's worth of difference. The more I read of you guys' struggles and experiences as you realized that the church you might well have been born into and grown up in wasn't really "The Truth" after all, the more I realize that if you just change some JW jargon for Mormon versions, a lot of you guys' stories would be exactly the same as ours. I served a full-time LDS (mormon) mission, and where I went, I ran into a lot of JWs. At first I was more argumentative and confrontational, but eventually I took a different point of view. I realized that I was in a country (Switzerland and Germany) where really nobody wanted to hear what I had to say about my religion, and just about the only other people who understood that experience of constant rejection were the JWs. Sure, the JWs didn't have the "real" Truth like I did, but they knew what it was like to actually be a missionary and go through all of that. I actually had a more collegial attitude toward the JWs I would run into on the street after that. I daresay most of them regarded me as some kind of heathen though, not having the "real" Truth like they did. :-) Anyhow, I'm in a situation that ought to sound familiar to you guys. I have come to realize that Joseph Smith was not one of the greatest men who ever lived, as I'd grown up being taught, but rather he was a fraud, a charlatan, a player who debauched women in the name of God, who set himself up as a light unto the world, but who, in the end, was making it up as he went along. The problem is, my wife still believes. Most of her family still believes. All of my family believe. We don't have the whole official shunning thing that you guys do, but there's a sort of de facto shunning that a lot of ex-Mormons will experience from members based on fear. It's fear that you've been corrupted somehow, and that it might rub off on them. To a true-believing Mormon, the church is so obviously true, and lead by God, that the only way someone can lose that testimony is if they somehow are lead astray by Satan. Who wants to have anything to do with a guy who is under Satan's influence? Can we blame them? Yeah, from the outside, they're brainwashed fools, but from the inside, they're just protecting themselves from the wiles of the Devil. So my wife's had a very hard time with this. More than once she's threatened me with divorce. She tells me that this isn't what she bargained for when she married me. She married a man who would lead her to the Celestial Kingdom (the Mormon conception of heaven), and now instead she finds herself married to a guy who not only has no interest in the Celestial Kingdom, but could well pull her down with me. Let me tell you, it's been pretty rough. Unlike the JWs, since there's no officialy mandated shunning, we get web forums where defenders of the faith, ie: Mormon apologists, will argue with Mormon critics, including ex-Mormons, about the church, the evidence that shows it's not true, etc. I've been participating on a couple of these boards for some time, and I have to say, it's really amazing just how brainwashed the true believers really are. And that was me. I had the strongest possible testimony that the LDS church was true. I knew it. I took it for granted. It was a bedrock value in my life which influenced my thinking about anything and everything. Small chinks in my belief system came up over the years because of things like the debate over Evolution, which I believe is a true description of how species developed, the Noah's Ark story, which I believe is pure mythology, etc. I believed in Evolution, and figured that the LDS leaders, whom we sustain as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators, were simply wrong about it. They were also simply wrong about Noah's Ark. But none of that really mattered, none of it threatened my faith in the church's truthfulness, because those details were not the important ones. They were not necessary to my salvation. What was necessary to maintain faith was believe in Joseph Smith's prophetic calling, which would underpin belief in his church, and a belief in the atonement of Jesus Christ. After all, Noah's Ark may not have happened, but if Jesus's atonement didn't happen, then it was all wrong. I lived my life with these little chinks in my belief, growing ever so slowly wider, until a couple of years ago. That's when I read some really damning material about Joseph Smith. My faith was threatened. I was scared. I know what it feels like to fear that the belief system one has lived his whole life by is actually not true. When you guys say this in your posts on this forum I know exactly what you mean. I felt it too. It was so hard to accept that I literally had to force myself, as a matter of will, to recognize even as just a possibility that the church might not be true, and let the chips fall where they may. That was sort of like a threshold for me. Once I forced myself to acknowledge the possibility, hitherto impossible in my mind, that the church wasn't really true, the whole edifice of my faith crumbled rather quickly. I let the chips fall where they may, and they indicated to me that in fact the LDS church was just as not true, just as manmade, and just as lead by man, as any other church. I was raised thinking the LDS church was special. We, alone out of all of the world's religions and churches, actually had The Truth, and that was a very special thing. I used to thank God that I'd been born a Mormon. I imagined, almost with a shudder, what my life might have been like had I not been blessed to have been born into the true church. I imagine a lot of you probably felt the exact same way about the JWs. Now I realize that the LDS church is not special, literally. It's not the sole true church on the Earth. It's just one of thousands of non-true churches. It's just one more drop in the bucket of wishful thinking and institutionalized mythology that is the world's religions. And you know what's cool? It's cool to realize that I really am just like you guys. There's no difference between us in a sense, because we're all people who've come out of two of the thousands of the world's false religions. My church isn't any more non-true than yours, and yours isn't any more non-true than mine. They're both completely and utterly not true, and now, rather than being "special" people, blessed with an honor most people in the world didn't enjoy (membership in God's one true church), we're all just human beings, trying to figure things out and make the most of our lives. I guess if this post has much of a point it's that you guys should recognize that your experiences aren't unique to the JWs. As I've long suspected, these are the experiences that are pretty common to people who somehow manage to free their minds from the flypaper of false religion, or from religion in general. I listened to a podcast a year or so ago from a guy who had left the JWs, and he described his experiences, and I swear if you just changed a few jargonized words, and skipped the official shunning, this story could have been exactly like a guy leaving the Mormons. It's fascinating to me. I can't promise I'll participate much on this forum. As much as we have in common regarding the nature of our experiences and the struggles our leaving our faiths causes us, still I don't have the exact same specific experiences that bind you ex-JWs together.
  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Welcome, SethMo. I'm the non-JW partner of a mixed marriage, so I can definitely relate to some of the difficulties you have had working things through with your wife. She does have a legitimate beef. You changed the program partway through. But in the end you had to be true to who you are. Now, it's a matter of helping her reconcile to who you have become.

    Have you ever run across Steve Hassan's books on Combatting Cult Mind Control? I hear his second book is even better. Hassan helped me recognize the difference between my husband's natural personality and the put-on cult personality. If you learn to do this, you can coax your wife's natural self to the surface more and more. Hey, you two got married because there was SOMETHING about you that clicked. Help those natural attributes come to the fore, and you can have more peace in the home. Hey, it helped me, maybe it can help you, too.

    I think anything you can do to reassure her that you are no threat to HER spirituality can't hurt. I often talk to my husband about God's love and abundant forgiveness. I ask him if he is worthy to open the lamb's book if life. If he isn't, why does he feel it necessary to judge who will or will not be approved? Leave it up to God, I say, and I bet a lot more people will be approved than he could ever imagine.

  • Tyrone van leyen
    Tyrone van leyen

    Hi Seth. I had a great Mormon freind who was never able to release himself from the beleifs of his church. He was a very decent man but very lonely and wandered the streets for years. He taught me a few things about mormons but I was always trying to get him to think independantly. The poor guy was a vagbond and always wore the same clothes. He even sleeps outside for most of the year and frequents the missions. I guess if your not shunned you still feel the rejection from peers.

    When you are officially shunned it is a death sentence and cutting off from the fold. It leaves you with no choice but to either find strength from within or find a new structure to replace the old one. It is very damaging to be shunned but they leave you with no choice, but to oppose them, as they are destroyers of families.

    I don't like using the term apostate. That is a word the witnesses invented to make you feel evil and ungodly. We are simply people who disagree with thier teachings and policies and beleive in independant thinking. That sounds so much more civil.

    The book of Mormon is one of the the strangest concoctions of pseudo scripture I have ever read. Its quite imaginative, and strange. Just like fiction.

    I wish you well Seth and welcome you to the board. I like the way you write too, by the way, and I have always seen the similarities of our High order religions. You may have more to contribute than you think.

  • ibme
    ibme

    Welcome Sethmo Enjoyed your post. How true, how true. Thanks

  • REBORNAGAIN
    REBORNAGAIN

    Welcome Seth!

    Wow, what a difference to read a posting from an Ex-Morman. Your story was super duper interesting. In my last posting I made the comment that there are numerous religions for the numerous varieties of people on this earth and nobody should criticize others for what they believe. Who has the right anyway to tell us we have to believe this or that or not believe this or that?

    Your time in Europe, I can only imagine what that was like. I had lived a number of years in Germany and the people there are sooooooooooooo cold-hearted when it comes to God. The only reason that the church doors are still open, is because the people have a church tax deducted from their payroll. NO JOKE. Then of course, they think if they die, they won't get a church funeral, nor have their babies baptized if they don't contribute to these church taxes. The majority only attend church on the holidays. Anyway, the point I was wanting to make, was that whether it's the JW's or the Mormans going door to door, in Europe, it is no fun. But...was it ever fun at all? Not really. We had to get up on Saturday mornings early instead of sleeping in and then go out and wake those who were still sleeping.

    Thanks for sharing with us your story. I hope because of all your relatives, that you will be able to stick to your decision to stay away and just keep listening to that inner feeling...it is always right.

    God Bless You and we look forward to more postings from you. The similarities are very similar indeed.

    LINDA

  • purplesofa
    purplesofa

    How kind it is of you to post your story here. Thank-you,

    When I converted from Catholicism to JW, I was really leaning towards becoming a Morman. Recently when I walked away from the JW experiance, oddly enough Mormans were at my door. They thought they were guided by God. What I had thought was, had I decided to go with the Mormans instead of JW's, at the very least the Mormans believe in being educated.

    I know life will work out well for you, but like all of us we are scarred. But, I think even with all the hardships of finding out the truth about the truth, for the most part we are happy.

    Welcome to the Board

    purps

  • eclipse
    eclipse

    Your story was very interesting to read! There is no difference between the feelings that mormons and JW's have. They have so many similarities, it's like the leaders went to the same ''brainwasher's teacher's college''.

    The same tactics are used, the only thing that varies is the information taught.

    They shun because they afraid that the devil or satan has gotten into our minds and they are afraid to be tainted by us. They are taught this fear. It is drummed into us from infancy...Amazing isn't it? That so many people can be so superstitious and not even realize it?

    And the JW's have the audacity to ridicule those living in parts of the world where superstition is the order of the day. Their arrogance and ignorance is disgusting.

    I am so glad that you escaped the mind control of the mormons. I hope that you can chip away at your wife's armor, and definitely read the book jgant recommended: combating cult mind control.

    Welcome to the board! We apostates are no different...we have so much in common with you as a mormon apostate, it's eerie.

    I look forward to more of your insightful and well written posts.

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