Elders school notes, Part 6: The JW Talmud, and Trust Us!!!

by sir82 94 Replies latest members adult

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  VM44

  Do they ever talk about how to get more from Bible reading and understanding the Bible at these elder's meetings?

  It appears that only organizational/judicial matters are discussed.

  --VM44
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  ackack

  Blondie: are you sure thats the expectation? I don't recall anyone telling me I had to wear my suit out to dinner. I think (now I'm a bit hazy) I could wear just decent informal clothes and still wear the badge card and be fine.

  But then again, I always zoned out during the annual convention part :) I remember one elder did it once with "fill in the blanks", "rhymes with" and "multiple choice" absurd q & a. It was SOO silly and everyone had a really good time and laughed at the absurdity (but he was counselled after for the levity)

  ackack
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  blondie

  ackack, look back up at the sir82's comments. They are concerned that JWs are dressed in casual clothing that is inappropriate while they are wearing their badges. Are shorts okay, are casual slacks, can sisters wear slacks or shorts, can they wear T-shirts with slogans, what is approved casual dress clothes per the WTS that can be worn with a convention badge? Yes, I have been told that when going out to eat, why not leave on your convention clothes and badges. Is it official? No, the WTS leaves a lot of room for "interpretation" but in the end, what casual clothing is appropriate with a badge? That is why the JWs I know just get into casual clothing and leave the badges at home or in their hotel rooms.

  Blondie
• 

  mcsemike

  What is this obsession with breasts?? I know this is corny, but what's next, we can't buy or eat chicken breasts? Maybe doing so will cause "unclean thoughts". Next, saying the word "breast" will be frowned upon after that. These WT idiots should get a life. How can they bash the Pharisees all these decades about the thousands of rules they added to Scripture and then do the same thing? I swear, the religious leaders in the first century couldn't be any worse than the WT is today. And what is "greediness" when it comes (no pun intended) to breasts? Wanting more of something? How about wishing she had THREE of them? Then they could ask, "Did you have each hand on one and your mouth on the third one?" What's with the third degree? I have a BA in Psychology and I know it's improper for adult males to question ANY female about her sexual activity. It's sick. When women are raped or molested, usually a female therapist takes care of it. OH OH, I forgot. She has breasts. Well, that let's her out. That must be why the MEN do the questioning. The less "breasts" in the room, the better. I am so glad to be out. Even though I'm a man, I better take down the mirrors in my bathroom. I don't want to see anything even remotely resembling breasts, even my flat ones. Actually, after years of body building, if I flex hard enough, I think I could manage an "A" cup. No more barbells for me. Thanks for all the posts and to the one putting up these notes. Very informative.
• 

  jeeprube

  I was even diagnosed at one point with Post Traumatic Stress because of that jc and how I was treated by the elders.

  me too

  I feel for you guys, it's good that you're here where you can get some emotional support.

  My wife ran into one of her old friends the other day who is DFed. We couldn't believe what for. She had been stepping out on her husband, so we just assumed they got her for that. Apparently they DFed her for being a surrogate mother for a couple. They used her egg and the man's sperm, all scientifically done at a lab, and implanted the egg. She carried the baby full term, delivered it, and handed over the child to the parents.....and she was paid for her services.

  Anyway, the elders tracked her down and informed her that she had committed fornication, and presto chango you are hereby DFed.

  Now I don't know a lot about invitro fertalization......did the fornication occur when the lab scientifically fertilized her egg in a test tube, or when the doctor penetrated her with whatever do-hickey they use to plant the egg? Did she committ fornication with the doctor, as he medically penetrated her? If so, aren't all JW women then guilty of fornication when they see their gynecologists?

  And is all this done with greediness?
• 

  Scully

  Well, isn't this a slippery slope of legalism....

  I'm kind of surprised they haven't mentioned sexual fetishes (other than ones having to do with breasts)... what if an elder has a foot fetish and googles images of women's feet for hours and hours on end and becomes aroused and ends up masturbating? He's not specifically viewing "porn" but isn't he giving in to his cravings? Isn't he permitting himself to be ruled by his desires? Would members of the congregation lose respect for him if they were aware of his fetish?

  They have just opened up one heckuva can of worms with this talk....

  Whatever happened to the concept of people having PRIVATE relationships? Sheesh.
• 

  Scully

  jeeprube:

  My wife ran into one of her old friends the other day who is DFed. We couldn't believe what for. She had been stepping out on her husband, so we just assumed they got her for that. Apparently they DFed her for being a surrogate mother for a couple. They used her egg and the man's sperm, all scientifically done at a lab, and implanted the egg. She carried the baby full term, delivered it, and handed over the child to the parents.....and she was paid for her services.

  Anyway, the elders tracked her down and informed her that she had committed fornication, and presto chango you are hereby DFed.

  Now I don't know a lot about invitro fertalization......did the fornication occur when the lab scientifically fertilized her egg in a test tube, or when the doctor penetrated her with whatever do-hickey they use to plant the egg? Did she committ fornication with the doctor, as he medically penetrated her? If so, aren't all JW women then guilty of fornication when they see their gynecologists?

  And is all this done with greediness?

  The official WT stance on surrogacy is that the wife's body is the property of the husband and she is not to use it in a way that dishonours the marital bed. Because her uterus was "for hire" they equate it with prostitution on one level, and the fact that it was neither hers nor her husband's genetic material makes it porneia as well.

  When you think about that logic, if Mary was made pregnant by Jehovah while she was already betrothed to Joseph, doesn't that mean that Jehovah is guilty of fornication/adultery?
• 

  Scully

  *** g93 3/8 pp. 26-27 Surrogate Motherhood—Is It for Christians? ***

  The

  Bible’s Viewpoint

  Surrogate

  Motherhood—Is It for Christians?

  THE ancient Roman poet Horace knew nothing of surrogate motherhood when he wrote: "It is of no consequence of what parents a man is born, so he be a man of merit." The 17th-century French writer’s maxim, "Birth is nothing where virtue is not," was also penned long before the concept of surrogate birth became a legal quagmire. But, as Mary Thom reported in Ms. magazine, with new reproductive technology, "the functions of producer of the egg, incubator of the fetus-becoming-baby, and caretaker of the baby once born" may be divided among two or three "mothers." The question of "virtue" and "consequence" has become both ambiguous and complex.

  The practice of using surrogate mothers burst onto the world scene during the mid-1970’s, raising social, moral, and legal problems not faced before. Some infertile couples were eager to take advantage of this nontraditional mode of reproduction. On the other hand, doctors, lawyers, and legislators have struggled to keep up with the expanding fertility technology in an effort to set guidelines that address the ethical and moral questions raised.

  What

  Is Surrogate Motherhood?

  Surrogate, or contract, motherhood is having an artificially inseminated woman bear a child for another woman. So-called traditional surrogacy occurs when the surrogate mother is impregnated through artificial insemination with the sperm of the husband from the couple who have contracted with her. The surrogate is thus the genetic mother of the baby. Gestational surrogacy means that the wife’s egg and the husband’s sperm are united outside the womb in a process known as in-vitro (test-tube) fertilization, and the resulting embryo is placed in the surrogate’s uterus for gestation.

  Why the rise in surrogate motherhood? For one thing, high-tech science has discovered several ways to help women have babies. Couples may desperately want a child, yet because of infertility, inconvenience, or too few healthy babies for adoption, they cannot have one. So they rent another person’s body to have a baby. Since large sums of money are involved, surrogacy has been described in unflattering terms, such as "involuntary servitude and slavery" and "strip-mining the fertility of the poor."

  In the United States, the New Jersey Supreme Court recognized the potential for the rich to exploit the poor and in a surrogacy case stated: "There are, in short, values that society deems more important than granting to wealth whatever it can buy, be it labor, love, or life." The Supreme Court of France stated that surrogate motherhood violates a woman’s body and that "the human body is not lent out, is not rented out, is not sold."

  Problems

  With Surrogacy

  Surrogacy brings a number of problems. One is the potential for ugly legal battles if the woman who gives birth wants to keep the baby. Whose baby is it, the woman who gives birth or the woman who provides the egg? So the birth of a child, usually a time of joy, sometimes leads to a courtroom battle. Another problem: Some women who agree to become surrogate mothers find their feelings changing with the development and birth of the contracted child. The contract laid out some months earlier becomes harder and harder to accept. A powerful bonding relationship is being formed between the mother and the baby inside her. One surrogate mother, not anticipating this bonding, explains her feelings about giving up the baby: "It was as if somebody had died. My body was crying out for my daughter."

  Also, what long-term effects might such a birth have on the surrogate’s other children, the family that accepts the baby, and the child itself? Or what will happen if a child born by a surrogate mother has a birth defect? Is the father obliged to take the baby? If not, who pays for the child’s support? And an even more important question, What is God’s view of surrogate motherhood?

  Does

  Surrogate Motherhood Honor Marriage?

  God’s Word tells us that he looks upon marriage as something sacred. For example, Hebrews 13:4 states: "Let marriage be honorable among all, and the marriage bed be without defilement, for God will judge fornicators and adulterers." God expects all Christians to consider marriage honorable and to keep it that way. What defiles marriage? Fornication, which can dishonor marriage in advance, and adultery, which dishonors marriage after it has been entered into.

  Does surrogate motherhood honor marriage and keep the marriage bed undefiled? Simply put, no. Traditional surrogacy requires the insemination of the woman by donor sperm. The Bible’s view may be found at Leviticus 18:20, which says: "You must not give your emission as semen to the wife of your associate to become unclean by it." There is no Biblical basis for making a distinction between insemination by intercourse and insemination artificially by donor implantation. Therefore, in either case, fornication or adultery is committed when insemination is accomplished by a male other than the woman’s legal husband.

  What about gestational surrogacy? This too defiles the marriage bed. True, the fertilized egg would be a union of the husband and his wife, but it is thereafter placed in the womb of another woman and, in fact, makes her pregnant. This pregnancy is not the result of sexual relations between the surrogate woman and her own husband. Thus, her reproductive organs are now being used by someone other than her own mate. This is inconsistent with the Bible’s moral principles that a woman bear a child for her own husband. (Compare Deuteronomy 23:2.) It would not be proper for a man other than the surrogate’s own husband to make use of her reproductive organs. It is an improper use of the marriage bed. Thus, surrogate motherhood is not for Christians.

  [Footnotes]

  The reference work New Testament Word Studies shows that "the marriage bed" of Hebrews 13:4 means that not only the state but also the use of marriage should not be defiled.

  [Picture Credit Line on page 26]

  Pastel by Mary Cassatt, The Metropolitan Museum of Art, Gift of Mrs. Ralph J. Hines, 1960. (60.181)
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  minimus

  But what if a breast is quite large?? If the breasts have larger nipples than "normal" it could be that a brother inadvertently touched them witout even realizing it. And if the sister's breasts kept getting into the way because of their size, a brother could touch them without even trying. If the sidewall was wide, once again the poor brother could simply be making a gesture and BANG! , just like that, he could be in judicial territory. And what if the large breasted sister felt guilty that her breasts tended to reach out and touch someone AND she liked it?? Would the sister have to think about getting a breast reduction because her mammaries were just too titillating? And still worse, if her breasts offended the consciences of others, would she not have the duty and responsibility to remove the offending causes of sin.?
• 

  Scully

  If the sidewall was wide

  geez, minimus, they aren't TIRES. BTW, I'm probably JC fodder for my professional duties that require handling other women's breasts while I'm helping them learn to breastfeed their newborns. Does wearing medical gloves exempt me from a committee meeting?