HERE'S A BOMBSHELL ABOUT THE 144,000 DOCTRINE......

by Mary 82 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Mary
    Mary

    Just when you think you've heard it all............In my research for my project, I was doing some digging around on the subject of the 144,000 and came across something in the WTS's literature that absolutely stunned me and, being the generous soul that I am , wanted to pass it on to you to get your thoughts on this.

    We all know that the Society teaches that the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation is speaking of "spiritual Israel" and not 'fleshly Israel' or even other Christians in general right? There are countless quotes throughout the literature that we are all familiar with that specifically state this, but to drive home a point, here are a few:

    Insight on the Scriptures Vol-1 p. 498 Congregation: "....Basically the Hebrew congregation was composed of natural Israelites. Persons comprising the anointed Christian congregation of God are spiritual Israelites, forming the tribes of spiritual Israel . (Re 7:4-8)........Usually when the Christian Greek Scriptures mention "the congregation" in a general sense, reference is being made to the 144,000 members thereof, the anointed followers of Christ exclusive of Jesus himself..."

    Insight on the Scriptures Vol 1 p. 1234 Israel of God: "...ISRAELOFGOD This expression, found only once in Scripture, refers to spiritual Israel rather than to racial descendants of Jacob ..."

    Insight on the Scriptures Vol 1 p. 1253 James, Letter of: "....James wrote the letter to "the twelve tribes that are scattered about," literally, "the (ones) in the dispersion." (Jas 1:1, ftn) He here addresses his spiritual "brothers," those who hold to "the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ," primarily those living beyond Palestine..........His reference to Abraham as "our father" (2:21) is in harmony with Paul’s words at Galatians 3:28, 29, where he shows that one’s being of the true seed of Abraham is not determined by whether one is a Jew or a Greek. Therefore, "the twelve tribes" addressed must be the spiritual "Israel of God."

    Insight on the Scriptures Vol 2 p. 889 Seed: "....Not until about 96 C.E., in the Revelation to the apostle John, did He reveal that spiritual Israel , those "sealed" with God’s spirit, which is a token of their heavenly inheritance, numbers 144,000 persons..."

    Insight on the Scriptures Vol 1 p. 1234 Israel of God: "...The apostle Peter quoted what had been said to natural Israel and applied it to this spiritual Israel of God, saying it is in reality "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.......The 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 must refer to this spiritual Israel for several valid reasons . The listing does not match that of natural Israel at Numbers chapter 1. Also Jerusalem’s temple and priesthood and all the tribal records of natural Israel were permanently destroyed, lost forever, long before John had his vision in 96 C.E........John’s vision of those standing on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb (whom natural Israel had rejected) revealed the number of this spiritual Israel of God to be 144,000 "bought from among mankind."—Re 7:4; 14:1, 4.

    OK, here's the bombshell: In Matthew 19:28, Jesus tells his apostles that in "the re-creation" they would "sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." The question is: Who are the "twelve tribes of Israel"? If it's referring to fleshly Israel, that would indicate that they still had some special role in God's plan----otherwise, why would they be singled out from the rest of mankind with regards to being judged? No, it must be referring to "Spiritual Israel" right?

    But how can it be talking about 'Spiritual Israel" since the apostles would be part of that group? You can't have someone judging themselves can you? Apparently even the Writing Department realizes that it would be insane to promote that idea as mentioned in the

    Insight On the Scriptures Vol 2 pp. 1125-1126 Tribe that says:

    ".....It is not reasonable that Jesus meant that they would judge the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel later mentioned in Revelation, for the apostles were to be part of that group. (Eph 2:19-22; Re 3:21)..."

    However, this leaves them in a quandry. Since they have always maintained that the "12 tribes of Israel" spoken of in the Christian Greek Scriptures is referring to Spiritual Israel (as I showed above), how to they explain this problem? Well hold on to your hats boys and girls because I couldn't believe my eyes when I read their explanation for it. As the section of the Insight On the Scriptures Vol 2 pp. 1125-1126 Tribe continues it says:

    ".....Consequently, "the twelve tribes of Israel" mentioned at Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 evidently represent "the world" of mankind who are outside that royal priestly class and whom those sitting on heavenly thrones will judge.—Re 20:4...."

    Can you believe this? How the hell can the "twelve tribes of Israel" represent "the world" when they have clearly stated that it represents "spiritual Israel"?? You can't have a group with the identical name representing two different classes at the same time. If "the twelve tribes of Israel" represents "the world", then how can "the twelve tribes of Israel" represent those that are judging them???

    I've never seen this one before and it pretty much floored me.........Your thoughts??

  • BizzyBee
    BizzyBee
    Consequently, "the twelve tribes of Israel" mentioned at Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 evidently represent "the world" of mankind who are outside that royal priestly class and whom those sitting on heavenly thrones will judge

    Evidently (which means 'clearly, obviously' or 'on the basis of evidence'), the WT writers tie off inconvenient loose strings in whatever way they wish, knowing that their brain-dead constituency will not question it. Good catch, Mary. Makes me wish I were still a witness so I could ask our spiritual leaders WTF.

  • Hope4Others
    Hope4Others

    "Insight on the Scriptures Vol 1 p. 1234 Israel of God: "...The apostle Peter quoted what had been said to natural Israel and applied it to this spiritual Israel of God, saying it is in reality "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.......The 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 must refer to this spiritual Israel for several valid reasons. The listing does not match that of natural Israel at Numbers chapter 1. Also Jerusalem’s temple and priesthood and all the tribal records of natural Israel were permanently destroyed, lost forever, long before John had his vision in 96 C.E........John’s vision of those standing on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb (whom natural Israel had rejected) revealed the number of this spiritual Israel of God to be 144,000 "bought from among mankind."—Re 7:4; 14:1, 4. "


    I always had trouble with that one, the lists not corresponding...no one ever had a good enough answer for me...and their
    reasoning.


    Thanks for your research it is always enjoyable to hear your thoughts sure makes one think...lol

    h40

  • Awakened at Gilead
    Awakened at Gilead

    Yes they use the word "evidently" when they have no clue about something, so they can change it whenever new light is convenient.

    Good point Mary.

  • logic
    logic

    This is just my personal opinion, but from some bible scholars on the internet I came to agree that the 144,000 and the great crowd are the same. The 144,000 is the symbolic number for the great crowd. The number representing completeness. There are 12 thrones and 12 apostles. It seems to me that Jesus was talking to the apostles and telling them they would sit on the thrones. How would 144,000 people sit on 12 thrones. The great crowd ( or the 144,000 ) would be the ones that the apostles would judge. The trouble with the society is that they think no one else can have an opinion. They obviously have not a clue about any of this. My point is that other peoples opionion at least make more sense than theirs. The society has many ideas that are completely the exact opposite of each other. They have always made one thing mean another, and an already fulfilled prophecy mean another without any basis for it.

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan

    Wow, good work Mary. That one makes no sense - purely arbitrary.

    I love how the Society reasons on these things: If the twelve tribes of Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 was a reference to "Spiritual Israel", then this would indicate that Jesus' disciples were somehow separate from the 144,000, and since there can be No Doubt™ that they are of the 144k, and that all other references to Spiritual Israel Evidently™ point to the 144,000, then in this one special case Jesus Apparently™ used this term in a different context. LOL.

    There was a bro in one congregation that I attended for a number of years who was a bit of a local celebrity among the dubs due to his knowledge of the "deeper things" and his fearless, even aggressive approach to the preaching work™. If anybody had doubts or found what they thought was an inconsistency in the Society's teachings, he was brought in to straighten the wayward soul out, and he would have no trouble at all running circles around your average JW on any issue like the one here. He really did a mind-f*ck on a lot of people, me included.

  • Mary
    Mary
    logic said: but from some bible scholars on the internet I came to agree that the 144,000 and the great crowd are the same. The 144,000 is the symbolic number for the great crowd. The number representing completeness.

    Actually, when I was at Jim Penton's house yesterday, he expressed the exact same view. I had never even thought of that before he mentioned it, but it makes alot more sense than the Society's bizarre theory......

  • VM44
    VM44

    One would think that The Watchtower doesn't really know what it is talking about!

  • Word
    Word

    The twelve apostles (the little flock) are not the twelve spiritual tribes of Israel (other sheep)

    The twelve apostles are twelve foundations for a city with twelve gates bearing the names of the the twelve spiritual tribes of Israel (Revelation 21)

  • Anti-Christ
    Anti-Christ

    The twelve apostles (the little flock) are not the twelve spiritual tribes of Israel (other sheep)

    That's one major flaw with every Christian religion that tries to "explain" the bible, it so vague that you could speculate and make up almost anything. I'm not saying that what you said does not make sense I'm just saying that when something is not clear it's your imagination that makes it clear, like looking through a dirty window. Like I said you don't see these things when you under the mind control.

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