The 24 Elders in Revelation are NOT the anointed......

by EndofMysteries 75 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  EndofMysteries

  Today I just thought of this. I had written a thread about the false teaching of the anointed being resurrected already. Anyway, the WT ASSUMES the 24 elders in Revelation are the 144,000, and the assumption is merely because both sit on thrones. I thought 'maybe' but probably not. I also had no idea who or what they could be.

  Today this scripture popped in my mind, Ps 82:1 - "God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of the gods he judges:"

  In that scripture above he is in the middle and it only says gods but obviously some very high ranking spirits. In Revelation those 24 elders are surrounding him.

  I think they are related. Also in Genesis when and even during the tower of babel, but the constant "let US" do this or do that. In hebrew you have el - God (in hebrew it's all lowercase so would technically all say god but for THE God assumption when translated all of those go as God and any not him are translated as god, even though in hebrew it's the same thing. and elohim- (translated as God but supposedly plural which would then be gods)

  So that's my thought of the day for any who have also researched or been looking into this as well at any point.
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  sd-7

  Well, I think it was pretty clear that the 24 elders are just like, THERE in heaven and there's no mention of how they got there in the book of Revelation that I can recall (not that I'm the authoritative source of anything...). But the 144,000 are spoken of as standing before the elders (Rev. 14:3), so, using the WT's own reasoning about the Trinity, can a person be standing before another person and at the same time BE that person? Nope.

  --sd-7
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  EndofMysteries

  sd-7 I didn't catch that obviously part of Rev 14:3 - that's even stronger proof they are not the same.
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  Christ Alone

  I personally believe that they are the raptured church. After the letters to the various churches in Revelation, the Christian church is not mentioned again until the end of Revelation.
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  Bobcat

  Admittedly, there are commentators (besides the Society) who equate the 24 elders with Christians, but:

  (Daniel 10:13) . . .But the prince of the royal realm of Persia was standing in opposition to me for twenty-one days, and, look! Mi′cha·el, one of the foremost princes, came to help me; and I, for my part, remained there beside the kings of Persia. . .

  Concerning the 24 elders in Revelation:

  (Revelation 5:6-10) . . .And I saw standing in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a lamb as though it had been slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which [eyes] mean the seven spirits of God that have been sent forth into the whole earth. . . . 8 And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, . . . 9 And they sing a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth."

  Here the 24 elders speak of the ones who rule as kings with Christ in the 3rd person.

  (Revelation 5:8) . . .And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense, and the [incense] means the prayers of the holy ones. . .

  Here the elders hold bowls full of incense meaning the prayers of the holy ones. It would have been easier to say "their own prayers" if they were the same.

  (Revelation 5:11, 12) 11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice: "The Lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing. . .

  Here the 24 elders in heaven speak of the Lamb as being worthy to receive power. If they are speaking of the Lamb recieiving power in the future sense then they cannot be the 144,000.

  (Revelation 11:16-18) 16 And the twenty-four elders who were seated before God upon their thrones fell upon their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king. 18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth."

  Here the 24 elders speak of "the holy ones", typically referring to Christians, in the 3rd person.

  (Revelation 14:3) . . .And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. . .

  Here the elders are in the same vision with the 144,000

  (Revelation 19:4-8) . . .And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God seated upon the throne, and said: "Amen! Praise Jah, YOU people!" 5 Also, a voice issued forth from the throne and said: "Be praising our God, all YOU his slaves, who fear him, the small ones and the great." 6 And I heard what was as a voice of a great crowd and as a sound of many waters and as a sound of heavy thunders. They said: "Praise Jah, YOU people, because Jehovah our God, the Almighty, has begun to rule as king. 7 Let us rejoice and be overjoyed, and let us give him the glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has arrived and his wife has prepared herself. 8 Yes, it has been granted to her to be arrayed in bright, clean, fine linen, for the fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones."

  Here again the elders are spoken of in the same context as the Lamb's wife.

  (Colossians 1:16) . . .because by means of him [Jesus] all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

  Here the "thrones or lordships or governments or authorities" are among the things that "were created." So they are not likely referring to oppositional thrones, etc.
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  EndofMysteries

  Thanks bobcat, more very good points.
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  AGuest

  May you all have peace! There is an erroneous assumption that all of the "covenants" made by JAH are entombed in the scriptures/Bible; they are not. For example, the covenant He has with beasts (the one mentioned at Genesis 9:8-17 is only one; there are others, including but not limited to those at Genesis 8:17; 9:1-6). He has also made other covenants, beyond the covenant with Abraham, the covenant with David, the New Covenant, and the covenant for a kingdom. There is the covenant with Death... and there is the covenant for "places" in the kingdom, including but not limited to rulership over the 12 tribes... being a "pillar"... and the position of "elder" (older one).

  I was permitted to post who these "elders" are on this site. Note, they are not the Apostles nor are they of the 144,000 "from among the sons of Israel").

  Again, peace to you!

  A doulos of Christ,

  SA
• 

  AGuest

  P.S. (and, again, peace to you!)...

  The "anointed" are not just the 144,000. The 144,000 are the "holy ones", those taken "from among the sons of Israel," (God's people)... in order to ensure that JAH's promise to Abraham was fulfilled. Once chosen, they are "sealed" so that the number is filled and the count completed. Their number has not been completed - all have not yet been sealed "in their foreheads"... which completion is evidenced by the unleashing of the "four winds."

  The "great crowd" are ALSO anointed... chosen... from among EVERY nation, tribe, tongue, and peoples. Along with the 144,000 (the little flock) these make up ONE flock of sheep, all of whom constitute SPIRITUAL Israel... the "people for a special possession," and "nation of kings and priests":

  "... the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb . Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. And they sang a new song , saying:

  “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals,
  because you were slain,
  and with your blood you purchased for God
  persons from every tribe and language and people and nation .
  You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God ,
  and they willreign on the earth .”

  Revelation 5:8-10

  " I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language , standing before the throne and before the Lamb . They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice:

  “ Salvation we owe to our God , who sits on the throne,
  and to the Lamb .”

  " These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb . Therefore, they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; ... For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd ; ‘ he will lead them to springs of living water ."

  Revelation 7:9, 10, 14, 15, 17

  " The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep . The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice . He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out . When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice . But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”

  “ I am the good shepherd ; I know my sheep and my sheep know me - just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen . I must bring them also . They too will listen to my voice , and there shall be one flock and one shepherd . The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

  John 10:2-4, 14-16

  [Jesus] answered her, “ If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have givenyou living water.”

  “[Jesus] answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst . Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

  John 4:10, 13, 14

  " Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded fromcitizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise , without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ [Jesus] you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ .

  " For he himself is our peace, who has made the twogroupsone and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility , by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit .

  "Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with the holy ones and also members of his household , on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit ."

  Ephesians 2:11-22

  " Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you ?"

  1 Corinthians 3:16

  " they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple "

  Revelation 7:15

  I hope this helps.

  Again, peace to you!

  A doulos of Christ,

  SA
• 

  AGuest

  P.S. (and, again, peace to you!)...

  The "anointed" are not just the 144,000. The 144,000 are the "holy ones", those taken "from among the sons of Israel," (God's people)... in order to ensure that JAH's promise to Abraham was fulfilled. Once chosen, they are "sealed" so that the number is filled and the count completed. Their number has not been completed - all have not yet been sealed "in their foreheads"... which completion is evidenced by the unleashing of the "four winds."

  The "great crowd" are ALSO anointed... chosen... from among EVERY nation, tribe, tongue, and peoples. Along with the 144,000 (the little flock) these make up ONE flock of sheep, all of whom constitute SPIRITUAL Israel... the "people for a special possession," and "nation of kings and priests":

  "... the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb . Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. And they sang a new song , saying:

  “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals,
  because you were slain,
  and with your blood you purchased for God
  persons from every tribe and language and people and nation .
  You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God ,
  and they willreign on the earth .”

  Revelation 5:8-10

  " I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language , standing before the throne and before the Lamb . They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice:

  “ Salvation we owe to our God , who sits on the throne,
  and to the Lamb .”

  " These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb . Therefore, they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; ... For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd ; ‘ he will lead them to springs of living water ."

  Revelation 7:9, 10, 14, 15, 17

  " The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep . The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice . He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out . When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice . But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”

  “ I am the good shepherd ; I know my sheep and my sheep know me - just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen . I must bring them also . They too will listen to my voice , and there shall be one flock and one shepherd . The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

  John 10:2-4, 14-16

  [Jesus] answered her, “ If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have givenyou living water.”

  “[Jesus] answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst . Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

  John 4:10, 13, 14

  " Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded fromcitizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise , without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ [Jesus] you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ .

  " For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groupsone and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility , by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit .

  "Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with the holy ones and also members of his household , on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit ."

  Ephesians 2:11-22

  " Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you ?"

  1 Corinthians 3:16

  " they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple "

  Revelation 7:15

  I hope this helps.

  Again, peace to you!

  A doulos of Christ,

  SA
• 

  EdenOne

  *marked*