I love the 1980's. The music, fashion, hairstyle, colors. Time of big hope. I lived behind the Iron Curtain and watched communist system to crumble. More freedom. Got permit to travel to West and got my first passport. Had my first job. So many of people I knew were alive in that decade, but are long gone, including my father. While I would not like to relive the time again, I would like to visit it for one day to see places that were changed. Dine out in places that do not exist anymore. Chat with people who died since then. It is hard to believe that it is 25+ years in the history.
Posts by kaik
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82Come with me, back to the 1980s--you know want to.
by FlyingHighNow ini don't know about ya'll, but i did not appreciate the 1980s enough.
i was too busy lamenting how different they were from the 1960s and 1970s to bask in and appreciate how wonderful they were.. this is 80s music, especially new wave music, and 80s fashion and culture appreciation thread.
what did you love about the 80s?
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74
7 Reasons Why Babylon the Great was Jerusalem
by Tiresias inauthors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.
the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).
i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.
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kaik
Stirred, thank you for your input. I tend to agree with designs that threads like these turns into anti-semitic bashing which is than justified by analysis of nonsense from Book of Revelation. This is not the first post that is turning into it nor it is last. Various scholars like Pagels, Mary P. Fisher and others going back to the 18th century are clearly stating that Jewish nation and faith does not bear a responsibility fo the death of Jesus. Majority of Jews in that time never heard of Jesus and his followers. Romans executed Jesus for sedetion. Jews also blamed christains for striring up troubles and bringing Roman punishment to the rebellious provice. Many individuals for hundreds of years interpreting Jewish misfortunate as a divine punishment for not accepting Jesus as Messiah and derives its reasoning from NT written by Jews for the Jews. The split between Christianity and Judaism happened decades after death of Jesus. People who lived in 70AD were most likely not even alive at the times of Jesus as average life expectancy in Roman Empire was around 33 years.
Jesus's audience was Jewish population and he was a critic of customs of the rulling elite and religious hiearchy. As Jew he was not anti-semitic. Jews did not see him as Messiah, only a few of his followers, many who were tied by family and tribe. After studying Judaism, I can understand why Jews do not see him as the Messiah, because he did not fullfill what would be expected from him. There were many other Messiah in the Jewish faith over the centuries, and only one was turned into world religion. The definitive split between Judaism and Christianity can be traced to Paul who invalidated Jews laws by making Torah obsolote, where its upkeep was not necessary for achieving God's approval. However, putting salvation through Jesus death made Christianity viable. No person of Jewish faith could reconcile these two as they do not believe in original sin, adamic sin, nor anyone can be a redeemer between you and G-D, and paid out for your sin.
Revelation have many different interpretations, but I tend to agree with Pagels that it was dealing with Rome. Centuries later when Rome became a Christian city, Revelation did not make anymore any sense. With the raise of extreme evangelical movement in the 19th century. many find the identification with Jewish Jerusalem. This much modern concept, and does not make much a sense in the context of the era in which it was written.
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What christians don't want to admit
by opusdei1972 inwhen i left the wt organization, i continued to believe in the bible, so i wanted to confirm and refine, as much as possible, my faith that the true god is in the bible.
so i began to discuss with skilled christians, who were also ex-witnesses.
but i was surprised when some of them tried to relax my fundamentalist position on the literalness of the genesis account.
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kaik
Jews do not believe in Original, Adamic sin. They figured out loooong time ago. Judaism also teaches that there is no redeemer for anyone sin. Everyone is responsible for his or her own sin.
Story of Adam and Eve is nothing more than moral story. There was no Adam, nor Eve. Death was always present with origin of life, and every living organism will die.
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Are first world countries to blame for the bulk of third world squalor?
by tootired2care inthroughout several past threads various posters have emphatically made the point that countries like great britian, united states, france etc.
basically countries where white people exist, are to blame for the poverty in many other third world nations.
some have even went so far as to suggest that the first world is to blame for all third world conditions.. i often see excuses such as these for why a country refuses to provide clean water, some food and basic sanitation for its people:.
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kaik
Of course it is double standard. Rich Europeans and Northern Americans get blaimed for everything wrong that happens with humanity. Who cares that they provided more for charity, were in Haiti after earthquake, or Indian Ocean after tsunami, and I even bothered to donate moeny to both of these disasters. Yet, I should feel responsbile for something failure like Haiti that secured independence 210 years ago. Current exploitation of resources are not as much problem of the rich countries, but corporation that can located anywhere in the world. I do not see how masses of poor in USA, Europe do benefit much from it either. They are better of than the poor in Africa due better welfare and social system, not to mention infrastructure, and bureaocracy.
When it comes to Sub-Sahar Africa, only its people are ultimatelly responsible for creating successful society. Some countries do better like Ghana and everyone could follow their lead. Europeans and East Asians were not always rich nor developed. It was run for several generations. 150 years ago, Ireland was starving; today it is one the wealthiest country in the world. The same success can happen anyone else. I do not see how present citizenry of former colonial powers like UK, France, and Belgium are responsible for 19th century injustice. I do not bear present Germany responsible for horrors of WWII that were unleashed upon Czechoslovakia in 1942-1945. Present British government is not responsible for Irish famine in 1840's. I do see it as hypocritical to put the blame on them, but the same blame for Romans and Mongosl could not be made. Anyone who was directly responsible for colonization of Congo by bastard like Leopold is long dead.
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74
7 Reasons Why Babylon the Great was Jerusalem
by Tiresias inauthors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.
the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).
i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.
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kaik
Tirasias, whatever was written by crazy mind of John of Patmos, has no whatsoever any meaning to me, nor to the persons of Jewish faith. Again, you even did not bothered to read my post, yet I hear bible thumping in the background as you would be at the field service. But I am long out from KH to get annoyed by it. Lets analyze your diatribe against my post:
I wrote that Jews as people do not whatsoever bear responsiblity for killing of Jesus. This is also taught at university level in Europe and USA. You trying to say that Jews are responsbile; and population of Judea got punished 37 years later by it? Only fascist, nazist, or anti-semitic individuals woud say that. Jesus was executed by Roman government. Jesus was not messiah for the Jews, because he did not fullfill anything what Jews would expect from real Messiah. No person of Jewish faith could ever reconcile these two. Several millions of 1st century Jews scattered accross the world, were not even aware of existence of Jesus and his follower. How Jews that lived in Alexandria, Rome, or Persia bear responsibility for event in 33 A.D.? Even Roman government in 70 A.D. did not singled out entire Jewish faith for a revolt in one of its distant province.
In 1st century A.D., the city of Jerusalem was a provincial seat of backward corner of the vast prosperous Roman Empire. There is no whatsoever comparision of Rome and dozens other large cities of the Antiquity to Jerusalem. Alexandria was the largest Jewish city. Ephesus, Athens, Carthage, Antioch were much larger, wealthier, and far more important for Roman administration than any city in Judea. This was also reason why majority of Jews lived outside of it for better social and economic opportunities. Ordo Urbium Nobilium, a Roman poem written about the most important cities of the Roman Empire had mentions 20 cities, but it does not mention Jerusalem: Rome, Constantinople, Carthage, Antioch, Alexandria, Trier, Milano, Capua, Aquileia, Arles, Seville, Cordoba, Tarragona, Braga, Athens, Catania, Syracuse, Toulouse, Narbonne, Bordeaux. Nowhere is any word on Jerusalem. Even Persia had big cities like Seleuceia. Jerusalem was not very wealthy, did not have an economy to support it, nor it was significant center of the Roman world. In Roman times, you can purchase luxurious items anywhere within this empire, even in distant provinces like Britian and Germania Superior.
The issue of Jerusalem in Revelation was not settled in past 250 years. Scholar that I mentioned here and one the best on this topic. E. Pagels identifies it with the imperial city of Rome. If you disagree with her and other scholars, than you should teach it instead of her at the Princeton University.
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75
CO's visit ends with a bombshell!!!
by nowwhat? inat the end of his final talk he said of the gb: they are telling the higher ups , "start getting ready we're not going to be around much longer!
" and we expect the angels to release the four winds any day now!
" my first thought was why are you building a corporate country club then?!
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kaik
I heard the same cr.p talk just at the time I walked away 20 years ago. Son of the elder who was in Bethel said in KH that the anointed told them that something is about to happen. There was a high tension in the heaven and Angels were ready to unleash Armageddon on the humanity. It is about to happen. This was the same BS. We walked home with fear and feeling after the meeting that we would be awaken to the sounds of Armageddon. I am still here.
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Are first world countries to blame for the bulk of third world squalor?
by tootired2care inthroughout several past threads various posters have emphatically made the point that countries like great britian, united states, france etc.
basically countries where white people exist, are to blame for the poverty in many other third world nations.
some have even went so far as to suggest that the first world is to blame for all third world conditions.. i often see excuses such as these for why a country refuses to provide clean water, some food and basic sanitation for its people:.
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kaik
tootired2care. Britain had poverty while it was very wealthy country even it is glorious days. Powerfull, yes. But millions were living in poverty and millions of British citizens had emigrated due lack of jobs and other opportunities elsewhere. So did Germans, which had since 1870's onward higher living standard than anyone else in Europe. France after 1800 had the world largest middle class and no other country put as many people into middle income bracket as did France through revolutions, guillotine, execeutions, mass repossession of properties, and forced redistribution. France was overtaken in 1920's by USA and later by [West] Germany with the size of middle class. UK never achived middle class on population extend as did France and Germany, not to mention USA. However, until industrialization everyone everywhere except the ruling elite, was starving or had empty stomach or worried what you will eat tomorrow. You could lived as a free citizen of Rome, and still starve. You could be a peasant in China under Han and feel the same. Europeans only had advantage of better technology and geography, it could never be conquered before 1945 without navy and large army. USA has both. Britain had only one. So did Hitler or Napoleon. Any case, I disagree that Europeans and I. world are responsible for everyone misery through the creation of humanity.
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7 Reasons Why Babylon the Great was Jerusalem
by Tiresias inauthors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.
the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).
i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.
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kaik
I agree with designs that this is partial diatribe agaisnt Jews and Judaism. Additionally there is always a deep interest for the evangelical extremists to prove that Revelation talks about Jerusalem, Jews, Judaism, and rejection of Jesus by own people; therefore, Jews got punished in 70AD. Nothing of this is true and it is rather a wishfull thinking to integrate various anti-semitics ideas of early Christian fathers like Paul and others with modern anti-semitism to show that Christian faith is the right one while Judaism is a dead branch.
Jews as a whole nation/ethnicity/race/faith do not bear any responsibility for the death fo Jesus. Majority of Jews were not even aware of his existence as only 1/4 of Jews in the whole world lived in Judea. For diaspora stretched from Britain to Persia, the event surrounding of Jesus life and death was totally unknown to him. Jesus was executed by Roman Government. Jesus did not fill any prophecy that Jews were expecting for their Messiah. When Jewish war started, it again only trashed and destroyed rebellious provice of the Roman Empire. Jews as culture, ethnnicity, faith, and people were NOT punished throughout the Roman empire in 70A.D. When various Greek provinces rebelled against Roman rule, Romans did not singled out entire Greek civilization. Jews got singled out only during Trajan, who banished them from Jerusalem, and forbade religion through the empire. This happened 90 years after death of Jesus. Jews were allowed back during Julian Apostate reign.
Whatever is written in Revelation, it is anyone wild guess for interpretation. I do not see Jerusalem, which was unimportant for Roman empire as place that was floating with wealth, had sailors (yeah it is landlocked), and its destruction caused merchants to weep. I could see dozen other cities of antiquity including Rome matching this description. Pagels identify it with Rome. So did other schollars as back as in 18th century.
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Are first world countries to blame for the bulk of third world squalor?
by tootired2care inthroughout several past threads various posters have emphatically made the point that countries like great britian, united states, france etc.
basically countries where white people exist, are to blame for the poverty in many other third world nations.
some have even went so far as to suggest that the first world is to blame for all third world conditions.. i often see excuses such as these for why a country refuses to provide clean water, some food and basic sanitation for its people:.
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kaik
It is easy to blame white race for everything bad that happened in the humanity and Europeans do not have problem accepting the blame to the point that is bordering with ethno-masochism. Whites were not much different from other races. Do any of you have a clue what Genghis-Khan and his descendant did to world from Adriatic sea to China? Who leveled and uprooted civilizations from Syria to Baghdad to Iran to Samarkand to China to Kiev to Dehli? It was not European race. Europeans had one advantage over other region which was the geography. Europe cannot be ever conquered by land, only by navy. Napoleon to Attila to Hitler failed due exact problem, not having Navy. When Europeans arrived in the 16th century to Far East instead of prosperous cities they find civilization that was so devastated by Mongols and Timur that they have no problems to take it over. Other mentioned diseases. Do you know that plague of Antonious, Cyprian, or Justinian that destroyed Roman civilization, all of them had roots in Asia? Even Black Death originated there and was spread out by Mongols to Black Sea.
Poverty is relative. Europeans did live in deep poverty all the way till 1800's. French Revolution was one of the symptoms of widespread poverty. Read the journals and articles from that time how people starved in France and everywhere else. In huge famine of 1771-1774, about 1/6 of population in Europe especially in Germany, Austria, and Bohemia died from hunger. Thousands of citizens hiked woods to eat bark, mushrooms, and wild berries to survive. In Netherlands, which was the wealthiest state in the world at that time had widespread poverty. Poverty was only eliminated due industrial revolution. Nothing had to do with collonialism. Before the industrial age, every society lived barely on survival level, even such glorious civilization like Roman and Han empires.
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Will Jehovah's Witnesses eventually become an African religion?
by LogCon inare there any statistics to show that proportionally the jw's are growing at a greater rate outside of western countries and, in particular, the african continent?.
if so, anybody's guess ?.....
1] by what year would the organization be predominantly african in membership?.
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kaik
Africa is generally the last bastion of Christian indoctrination and ignorance. It is heaven for various crazies who hope to implement their theocratic version of Christian society and there is a huge demand for it in various segment of population. Latin America is becoming less religious and new crazies reached a barier where they cannot penetrate much deeper anymore. Even for evangelicals who brag how much they got foothold in Brazil, there is a clear indication that entire region is becoming more affluent, liberal, left leaning, and less religious. Totalitarian concenpt of Christianity will not likely strife there as much. WT will follow where are the money as do other religions, but also where they get the most venerated. Catholic church is shifting its focus on Africa and cares less for Europe or Northern America.