Posts by undercover

53

What is their official explanation for not allowing beards?

by keyser soze in

jw
friends

i ask because my gf, who knows all about my jw upbringing, convinced me to grow a goatee, just to see how it looks.

we both decided it looked good so i decided to keep it.

i tried to explain to her that as a jw, i wasn't allowed to grow one, but then drew a blank when she asked me why.

undercover

Law handed down orally. Enforced by elders and peer pressure.

Circuit overseer told the story in one of those 'OBEY or else' talks about an elder from a foreign country who came to the US. He had a beard, the local elders thought it looked fine, no action taken. Along comes the CO who chided the elders for allowing it. Made them tell the bearded elder to lose it or be removed. Why? As the CO said in the talk, 'It's just not done. What is more important? Following rules or demanding personal rights?' The CO was happy to report that the bearded elder shaved his beard and fell in line with rest of the sheep.

I asked an elder about it one time. He gave me the 'don't want to give the org a bad rep' excuse. He then went on to explain how large corporations have grooming rules for employees. They don't want exposed tattoos, body piercings, facial hair, etc etc. All about the reputation of the corporation. That was the day I finally realized that I wasn't a member of the one true religion, but an unpaid employee for a publishing company.

25

This too Shall Pass (RC Commission vs WTS)

by undercover in

jw
friends

while i'm glad that the practices of the wts are under review and the australian commission is taking them to task, i'm not really expecting huge changes in the long run.

oh, they may have to agree to some changes in how they report crimes brought to elders' attention, but this excitement over the supposed expose of wt practices shall pass, and jws will soon be canvassing neighborhoods and rolling their carts, looking for converts.

conventions will go on.

undercover

While I'm glad that the practices of the WTS are under review and the Australian commission is taking them to task, I'm not really expecting huge changes in the long run. Oh, they may have to agree to some changes in how they report crimes brought to elders' attention, but this excitement over the supposed expose of WT practices shall pass, and JWs will soon be canvassing neighborhoods and rolling their carts, looking for converts. Conventions will go on. Money will be begged. Property bought, property sold. Lies told. Old JWs dying with no sight of a Paradise Earth.

As in organized crime, you can only impede their growth, not stop them. Same way with organized religion (which is pretty much the same thing). You can disrupt them in small degrees, embarrass them, but you'll never break them up, or get them off the streets.

Jackson speaking before the RC is not much different than Michael Corleone testifying before the senate sub-committee on organized crime activity. Everyone knew he was Mafia, yet he walked away. We know all about the WTS, and the commission either knows or suspects, but Jackson will lie and maybe some low level capos will take the fall, but the leadership? Never.

The odds of the WTS being brought down by a government investigation, or even an expose from inside is slim to none. It's about the same odds as Frank and Ray exposing government corruption in the final episode of this season's True Detective. You might burn down a casino, and kill some mid level Russian mobsters, but the whole corrupt syndicate continues grinding along.

58

Will his holiness Jehovha Jackson appear before the ARC?

by punkofnice in

yes or no.......what say you?.

i'll start - no!.

.

undercover

If required to show, he'll show. And he'll try to wag the dog. Even if the Commission folks zero in on inconsistencies, he'll lie his way through it.

No biggie for him.. He's used to lying in front of thousands of people on a daily and weekly basis. And if he actually believes that he has God's spirit, he'll even be cocky about it.

11

'Parents' magazine cover with JW.org cartoon kids

by undercover in

jw
friends

making the rounds on facebook among jws is a photo of a 'parents' magazine cover that shows the cgi jw.org kids on the cover, and an article headline about how wonderful the teaching tools on jw.org are.

(i don't have the time or the desire to hunt the photo and post it - sorry).

i immediately suspected some bored and naive jw doing some photoshopping.

undercover

Making the rounds on Facebook among JWs is a photo of a 'Parents' magazine cover that shows the CGI JW.org kids on the cover, and an article headline about how wonderful the teaching tools on JW.org are. (I don't have the time or the desire to hunt the photo and post it - sorry)

I immediately suspected some bored and naive JW doing some photoshopping. My quick 5 minute search revealed no concrete evidence either way. And that's about all the time of my life I wish to invest on the search. I'm sure it's not real, but I was wondering if anyone else has seen this photo show up among JWs on your Facebook/Twitter/Instagram lists.

24

ROYAL COMMISSION: ARE JWS TAUGHT TO REFRAIN FROM SWEARING ON THE BIBLE OR NOT? JW.ORG PLEASE EXPLAIN!

by steve2 in

during yesterday's rc proceedings (wednesday 5th august 2015), one of the victim's lawyers questioned mr vincent toole, the jw organization's legal counsel for the australian branch office.

she asked him why at least two of the jw elders who gave evidence last week refused to swear on the bible.

mr toole appear puzzled by her question and said he did not know.

undercover

Another orally handed down 'law', made enforceable by peer pressure.

I remember that it was 'looked down on' to swear on the Bible. JWs, being a very black and white crowd, were told that 'christians' didn't need to swear on a Bible, and most took it to heart, all the way to refusing to swear on a Bible in court proceedings. Even when the WTS clearly called it a 'conscience matter', JWs were still afraid to go too far.

That's where these court proceedings can be tricky. If an attorney starts harping on these minor little things, and then a WT lawyer trots out printed material that leaves it up to the follower, then it can make the accusing lawyer look at best silly, at worst misinformed.

We know that real WT law is an oral tradition, and that words in a Watchtower are just a CYA for later, should someone accuse the WTS of something. Problem is that you can't easily prove this indoctrination method straight up. You have to experience it. You can't really prove it, unless you lived it.

12

Why is a mass shooting in a church worse than other mass shootings?

by undercover in

jw
friends

i'll preface this by saying that i was horrified by the news of the shooting in charleston, a town that i visit quite frequently, and i know where the church is.

i don't mean to make light of the situation, but my question is serious, after having watched news pundits, politicians, neighbors, friends, express shock, horror and outrage over the events.. they, like me, were shocked by the school shootings, and the theater shootings, and other mass shootings.

but i sense a different shock, a different reaction, to this event.

undercover

I'm a little familiar with the history of the church, and Charleston's history with slavery up to, and during the war (and subsequent aftermath). Thanks for the Slate article, sir82. When speaking in specifics, it does add to the equation.

But the reactions from people I was originally referring to weren't in the know of the church, or even the city. The reactions I witnessed were coming from people who had no clue as to the significance of the building, the city, the history. They were just appalled that it could happen in a church, as opposed to say, the mall.

I really think some people believe that God, or his spirit, or whatever, is present in these buildings and there is true sanctuary in these buildings. So, when their sensibilities are upset with this kind of event, they are more shaken than when it happened in a movie theater. Truth is, location doesn't matter. There is no sanctuary if someone wants you dead enough bad enough.

12

Why is a mass shooting in a church worse than other mass shootings?

by undercover in

jw
friends

i'll preface this by saying that i was horrified by the news of the shooting in charleston, a town that i visit quite frequently, and i know where the church is.

i don't mean to make light of the situation, but my question is serious, after having watched news pundits, politicians, neighbors, friends, express shock, horror and outrage over the events.. they, like me, were shocked by the school shootings, and the theater shootings, and other mass shootings.

but i sense a different shock, a different reaction, to this event.

undercover

I'll preface this by saying that I was horrified by the news of the shooting in Charleston, a town that I visit quite frequently, and I know where the church is. I don't mean to make light of the situation, but my question is serious, after having watched news pundits, politicians, neighbors, friends, express shock, horror and outrage over the events.

They, like me, were shocked by the school shootings, and the theater shootings, and other mass shootings. But I sense a different shock, a different reaction, to this event. More hopelessness in their reactions, as if to say, 'if you can get shot in church, you can get shot anywhere'. They've hinted, if not outright said, 'this is the worst that can happen'.

Why? Why is a shooting in a church where nine people are killed worse than twelve people killed in a movie theater? Or worse than twenty-six killed in a school shooting? How is sitting in a church safer than sitting at school, or work, or in a theater? All of these murders were equally abhorrent, and whether they were praying, watching a movie, or sitting in a classroom, the location doesn't matter. They were innocent people murdered.

If this event stands out from the others, it's because these people were singled out because of their race, not because they were in church. I think more focus should be on that. This was a hate crime, not some nutjob going psycho. This was planned, and his victims were picked out for one reason...their race. That is the truly horrifying aspect.

2

Slate.com article on kids whose parents refuse medical treatment: JWs mentioned

by sir82 in

the article is here.. relevant snippet:.

these exemptions have produced the expected result: hundreds of children have gotten sick and died because their parents resorted to faith rather than medicine.

i cover this ongoing tragedy, one of the most serious conflicts between rationality and superstition, in my new book, faith vs. fact: why science and religion are incompatible, and you can read more in caroline frasers gods perfect child: living and dying in the christian science church and paul offits bad faith.

undercover

JWs who refuse blood transfusions for their children, allowing them to die in a life threatening situation to prove they are faithful to Jehovah, are no better than the ancient people who gave sacrificed their children in fire to prove their faith in Baal.

According to the Bible, Jehovah despised those people who martyred their children to a 'false' god, yet (per the WTS) requires his people to martyr children to prove their faith in him.

5

Old Memories Revisited - or - How to Stop Worrying and Love WT Indoctrination

by undercover in

jw
friends

i remember when i was a kid, how the importance of meeting attendance was continually drummed into our heads.

through the magazines, meetings, and especially traveling overseers, it was stressed that missing just one meeting was akin to allowing satan into our lives and would jeopardize our everlasting life in paradise earth.. one particular bit of 'advice' stood out, even to a small child: even if out of town relatives showed up on meeting day, you shouldn't let that cause you to miss a meeting.

i remember trying to play that out in mind... 'welcome, grandpa!

undercover

I remember when I was a kid, how the importance of meeting attendance was continually drummed into our heads. Through the magazines, meetings, and especially traveling overseers, it was stressed that missing just one meeting was akin to allowing Satan into our lives and would jeopardize our everlasting life in paradise earth.

One particular bit of 'advice' stood out, even to a small child: even if out of town relatives showed up on meeting day, you shouldn't let that cause you to miss a meeting. I remember trying to play that out in mind... 'Welcome, Grandpa! My, you must have traveled for days to get here. I'd invite you in, but we're getting ready to leave for the Kingdom Hall. Want to come with us?' Stupid. No matter how I tried to play it, it just didn't make sense. I figured then that some things were exaggerated to make a point, and no one would really expect you to live up to such nonsensical standards.

Fast forward several decades:

A couple that we were friends with in the hall moved to another state. My wife kept up with them more than I did, especially after I learned TTATT. But for awhile they communicated, and our friends always made it clear, 'if you're ever in our area, let us know so we can get together'.

Well, in time we did travel to their area. My wife pre-arranged a meet up...sort of. We didn't know our exact schedule but we knew we would be in the area in a certain 24 hour period. So they knew we were going to be in town, just not the exact hour.

When we knew a more exact time, my wife called to let them know. Their response? 'Oh. We'll just be leaving for the hall at that time. We won't be able to meet this time. Maybe next time.' Really? You can't dump one of your 5 (at the time) meetings of the week, to spend time with old friends? I guess we weren't really that close of friends, after all.

The WT indoctrination does work, even down to blowing off old friends to attend the same humdrum, boring WT meeting

13

Saw my first JW literature cart

by undercover in

jw
friends

i saw a jw literature cart, and two dubs standing behind it this weekend.

they set up at a popular well attended event in a small town that brings thousands of people from around the country.

even though i've been out and away from jws for some time, and no longer identify as one of them, and the people i was with had no clue, it was a bit embarrassing to see the cart and cult zombies with it.

undercover

I saw a JW literature cart, and two dubs standing behind it this weekend. They set up at a popular well attended event in a small town that brings thousands of people from around the country. Even though I've been out and away from JWs for some time, and no longer identify as one of them, and the people I was with had no clue, it was a bit embarrassing to see the cart and cult zombies with it. As if someone would figure out that I was connected somehow. I could picture someone pointing me out, kinda like Donald Sutherland in "Invasion of the Body Snatchers".

But I did just as everyone else did on the sidewalk did...walked by without giving them a second glance. But - from a nearby vantage point, I had the opportunity to observe them for awhile. No one paid them any attention. Out of the hundreds of people that passed back and forth, only one person...yep, that's right...one person, stopped to look. And this guy spent entirely too much time chatting with them. I think he had to be either an apostate looking for fun, or some other evangelical trying to save their souls.

So...if any of you radical apostates were on the East Coast at a music festival looking to mix it up with some JWs at their little lemonade cult stand, I saw ya...