honeybucket. how about this: the great crowd are the 12 tribes in disarray after the Great tribulation. the 144 000 were part of the great crowd before they were sealed to be scpecial. But the sealing started at pentecost. was there a great crowd then too? why not consider the great crowd to be all Christians? read Re,7and 14, the answers are there. 12 tribes? joseph and Levi in, Dan and Ephraim out. answer at beabeorean.com. peace.
prologos
JoinedPosts by prologos
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The 144,000
by dabster ini was reading in revelation 7 yesterday, where the 12 tribes of the sons of israel are named and where we learn that 12,000 from each tribe are sealed.
how do the jws explain that the 144,000 are identified as israel - and identified so specifically that the 12 tribes are named?
be gentle with me when answering.
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OK, spill the beans, which one of us wrote into Biblical Archaeology Review this month about the pronunciation of YHWH?
by dropoffyourkeylee inhere's the subject:.
the "q&c" questions and comments section of the journal 'biblical archaeology review' (one of my favorite magazines), jan/feb 2013 , p. 68, someone from illinois wrote the following question:.
quote: "we've often heard that 'jehovah' is an amalgamation of the unpronounced tetragrammaton (yhwh) and, when spoken, is pronounced "lord" (adonai).
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prologos
yes, adonai, and in his last words of prayer he used "Eli". to me, should it suspiciously sound as a dialect form, related to Allah. meaning GOD ?.
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A thought experiment about what it means "to be" GOD
by Terry inall believers in god begin with the premise that he is the creator.. but-stop!.
go back one step.
what about before god was a creator.. creation is the "beginning" for the created--but--not for god.. .
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prologos
terri, my take on this: all 4 dimensions are real, time has to be the oldest, eternal. - as material beings We MOVE in all three dimensions. drive your motorcycle, fly your plane. watch the earth rotate about the polar-star axis. ---watch YOU MOVE through time too. watch your watch. this is true of all motion in all dimensions. try to drive your motor cycle backward or to do a lomcevac in your plane. If you retrace your steps, it is not the same place anymore. "To be" like god, you would: be in time past and future and not moving.( James 1:17 just as a reference.) love your writing. peace! (without prisons).
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Change of doctrine - when did this happen?
by FingersCrossed ini received this article from a friend:.
watchtower changes concerning the anointed 144,000. there has been a major change concerning the 144,000 (the anointed) and for many years the anointed has played a major role in the teachings of the watchtower (wt).
the 144,000 is the most crucial teaching to the witnesses; however, the teaching on this belief has changed over the past few years.
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prologos
FingersCrossed: Thank you for this topic. I like to deal with it as IF the BIBLE is still a VALID guide in matters spiritual. Many here as you know, have even questioned that. rightly so.
If you see a doctrinal house that continually keeps developing serious cracks in the wall, ceiling and floors you know you have a foundation issue, a serious structural problem. even if the symptoms are shifting only, what is at the base, the heart of the 144 000 dilemma? using the bible and working back from Rev. 7 you said:
"--144 000--not chosen until Great TABULATION time--" (The tribulation finishes the tabulation). dont give the WTBS ideas, they will say that the sealing started in 1919! No! If you look at Rev14, it is seen that the 144 000 are special and most certainly include the faithful APOSTLES ,therefore the sealing started at PENTECOST 33 and FINISHES at the GT. the angels know exactly what they are doing and they are not telling us. 12 spiritual tribes only known by them. So here where the scriptural foundation has its fatal flaws:
1) the other sheep are really the non-Jewish GENTILE CHRISTIANS, The "one flock" is not two-tier definenable , earth- and heavend destiny , see the context in John 10.
2) Jesus' spiritual brothers and sisters are not self-declared remnant members but "--WHOEVER does the will of my father--is my brother--"Math.12:50! the parable of the sheep and the goats Math. 25 is about these -in Math. 10 defined- brother, sisters, not the OTHER sheep, and supposed "anointed".
3) all Christians should take the Bread and the Wine. at the last supper, Jesus served these to disciples that had rightly an EARTHLY HOPE!!! the NEW COVENANT CUP is for forgiveness of sins, is for gaining the standing of everlasting life, it is not for entry into the heavenly kingdom. The counting of the partakers is a farce, its wrong, because: a) all should partake, b) that count its only about those that are deluded to think they can SELF-SEAL themselfs, a job that is reserved for the angels. at least the vatican has a devils advocate in their saint-choosing process. to sum up:
given what the scriptures teach that : All doers of Gods will are Christs' brothers, sisters.
The other sheep are non-Jewish Christians
The sheep of Math:25 are NOT the Other sheep but Humanitarian workers.
All Christian should, must, partake of the bread and wine for everlasting life,
it is apparent that the hand-wringing about the PARTAKER-COUNT is wrong, is futile, is irrevelant ;-- its results, its analyses are meaningless, but expose clearly the flawed bibel studies of the WTBT inc's past. so, why would you think that a COUNT that has NO scriptural basis, Therefore NO meaning should have such important focus? other than proving our move-out is justified? dont worry about it, move on to better matter. peace to you'all.
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Lest we forget the religious right's view of today's tragedy....
by EntirelyPossible ina. douchebag.. http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/huckabee-schools-place-of-carnage-because-we-systematically.
former arkansas governor mike huckabee attributed the mass shooting at sandy hook elementary school in part to restrictions on school prayer and religious materials in the classroom.
"we ask why there is violence in our schools, but we have systematically removed god from our schools," huckabee said on fox news, discussing the murder spree that took the lives of 20 children and 6 adults in newtown, ct that morning.
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prologos
But President Obama too, in his speech today said " God has called these little ones home" so even if he was not fox'es favored, he still implies that God somehow came out on top, is "calling" when children are massacred. remember london, coventry, auschwitz, dresden, hiroshima, uganda too. makes you cry.
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A thought experiment about what it means "to be" GOD
by Terry inall believers in god begin with the premise that he is the creator.. but-stop!.
go back one step.
what about before god was a creator.. creation is the "beginning" for the created--but--not for god.. .
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prologos
apognophos: thank you: your term " from moment to moment" its profound about time. the key word is FROM. because as we move through time we never stop, unlike like the old 8mm/16mm/ 35mm movie bands, ratcheting along .no, we live in the moving "now" that has zero length in time. as scary thought, that our existence depends on MOVING from zero to another zero. In that way it is different "TO BE" god, for he is seen to be stationary in eternal time. He IS not time, nor is he LIGHT nor is he LOVE, (to use some bible terms) but time is his domain, his eternal property. I dont think he is playing games with us. he just likes us to be workers like he is. and nurturing like our family-making ladies. peace.
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A thought experiment about what it means "to be" GOD
by Terry inall believers in god begin with the premise that he is the creator.. but-stop!.
go back one step.
what about before god was a creator.. creation is the "beginning" for the created--but--not for god.. .
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prologos
satanus, thank you. as you can read, many contributors here have moved past the biblegod. past the bible, period. The way I see it now, the creator has given us an extraordinary degree of freedom, leaving us to research every subject. but there is a benefit. only when you work on it yourself do you really understand it. we have much to learn, thats the exiting part, and to be able to read the clearly expressed thoughts of others. not to be had at the KH.
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todays wt study: illustrating an illusion? not only for lurkers and faders.
by prologos inan early video of the governing body showed them making weighty final decisions, such as choosing the right hue, the color of an apple in a preparation for publication.-- so we must assume that the articles -like todays study article- passed muster too.
(october 15, 2012 page 22).
can somebody smart put it up please.?.
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prologos
kurtbethel, so right it is artistic, it is sloppiness its symptomatic of the whole enterprise, but for some these things like the picture of the universe are important. if you cant get that right ? how about the deeper things. why did this picture hit me?
Hoffnung and Sauerkraut Kurt? would understand . in central europe there is a nursery song beautiful melody and rhime: bad translation:
Who has the most lamb-like clouds? it is the sheppard moon who lives ABOVE the clouds, the clouds ,the moon that UNDER the stars dwells. Any toddler there learns the cloud to moon to star escalation.
from artistic license to license with the truth, to license with human rights.
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A thought experiment about what it means "to be" GOD
by Terry inall believers in god begin with the premise that he is the creator.. but-stop!.
go back one step.
what about before god was a creator.. creation is the "beginning" for the created--but--not for god.. .
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prologos
Terry, thank you. : no,-- "such a small thing in our head" is not running the world, which seems to run by itself quite well, thank you. , and that world is BIG and its OLD, and Einstein who had a bodily big head, expressed it this way: its the most remarkable feature of the universe that we can (learn to) understand it
working with the limitation of the human mind that you Terri identified, it is possible to think of a creator, but he is working better than we.
of a creator that lived before us and still lives. That is eternal and posseses eternal time and more energy than we do.
all what is said is only a construct of our minds. everything we know is. but much what we know is also out there,-- like the rush we get on the Texas autobahn.
Apognophos: I share your thought -of -limit on god as a creator.--so, Can you think of god not outside of time, but as time to be an eternal property of an eternal god? time through which we move as on a texas highway, but time through which god does not MOVE, but is? that god IS already in the future? eternally?
and I am Not proselytizing. just my ideas, in my head.
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todays wt study: illustrating an illusion? not only for lurkers and faders.
by prologos inan early video of the governing body showed them making weighty final decisions, such as choosing the right hue, the color of an apple in a preparation for publication.-- so we must assume that the articles -like todays study article- passed muster too.
(october 15, 2012 page 22).
can somebody smart put it up please.?.
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prologos
sorry ziddina, but I pleaded for someone to put it up, like I did with August 15 2012 page 10 picture of "face under sacred pillar" story.
I am old enough and sharp eyed enough to be a photo- analizer of the mustang reconnaisance aircraft film strips, but lack the skills to put up pictures here. the brains here dont need me any more.