Posts by Apognophos

24

CREATIVE "DAYS" - What do JWs believe?

by Bloody Hotdogs! in

a few weeks ago, i asked you to critique my website article on dinosaurs (http://www.jwbeliefs.com/what-do-jehovahs-witnesses-believe-about-dinosaurs/).

it was pointed out that much of what i wrote depends on the creative "days" being relatively short - something i believe jws teach.. after being prompted to review my conclusions/research, i was more convinced than ever that jws promote relatively short creative days.

the nail in the coffin was the teaching that day seven is indicative of the length of the other six days (i.e.

Apognophos

You've probably seen this before, right Hotdogs? This is the most recent mention I can find of the days being even in length:

*** w70 2/15 p. 120 The Days of Creation from God’s Viewpoint ***

Just how long, then, were these “days” of creation? The Bible gives us a clue as to the length of the seventh day. Since these “days” were all part of one ‘week,’ it would be reasonable to conclude that all these “days” were of the same length.
[...]

This accounts for 6,000 years. Is that the length of the seventh day? No, because we read that “God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred.” Its outcome must be “very good,” and that is not true of present world conditions; so the “day” must still be continuing. Actually these six thousand years have been, as it were, man’s workweek, in which he labored by the sweat of his face. But he will get rest during the coming thousand-year reign of Christ, which Bible chronology and fulfillment of Bible prophecy show is to begin very soon.—Gen. 2:3.

The seventh one thousand years of the seventh “day” will thus in itself be a sabbath. During it Satan and his demons will be bound. Christ and his anointed followers will rule with him as kings and priests. With what result? That all God’s enemies will be put beneath Christ’s feet. By means of this sabbath the seventh day will truly be sacred, for it will cause righteousness to flourish.—1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 20:1-6; Psalm 72.

Thus we find the seventh “day” of the creative week to be seven thousand years long. On the basis of the length of the seventh “day” it is therefore reasonable to conclude that each of the other six “days” also was a period of 7,000 years. This length of time would be ample for all that the Bible tells us took place on each of the six days of creation.

This passage also touches on the circular reasoning surrounding 7,000 days, which seems to be "Well, 6,000 years have passed so far, and the Thousand Year Reign must occur within this final day, so that makes 7,000", with no consideration of the possibility that maybe the day is 10,000 or 1,000,000 years long instead.

24

CREATIVE "DAYS" - What do JWs believe?

by Bloody Hotdogs! in

a few weeks ago, i asked you to critique my website article on dinosaurs (http://www.jwbeliefs.com/what-do-jehovahs-witnesses-believe-about-dinosaurs/).

it was pointed out that much of what i wrote depends on the creative "days" being relatively short - something i believe jws teach.. after being prompted to review my conclusions/research, i was more convinced than ever that jws promote relatively short creative days.

the nail in the coffin was the teaching that day seven is indicative of the length of the other six days (i.e.

Apognophos

I distinctly remember a couple years back a CO gave a long talk in which he talked about how Jesus had been hangin' out with Jehovah for at least 13.8 billion years since that's the age of the universe and jesus was around before that.

Yes, but remember, we established that the creation of the universe is not part of the seven days according to Witnesses (and other fundamentalists). So if scientists say the universe is 14 billion years old, then fine, it can be, because Genesis 1:1 is outside the creative week. But they can still believe the specific creation acts in Genesis 1 starting with light in verse 3 (which is said to refer to the appearance of light from the surface of the Earth, not the creation of light or stars) were 7,000 years.

I was forced to think more carefully about this when Hotdogs made his last topic, and I've been wondering if they really do mean to hide the fact that they still believe each of these days is 7,000 years. sir82's anecdote is very interesting in this regard. I guess now we need to see if anyone can come up with a quote from the Society about whether the days were necessarily the same length or not. In a way this whole exercise is extremely silly since, as far as I know, nobody's been able to figure out where 7,000 years even came from in the first place. But we have to be prepared to deal with silliness when discussing Watchtower teachings, right?

OTWO: Interesting math exercise. Just another number for you, the current overlapping teaching has a maximum limit of 2067 if you imagine that someone in the "second group" was anointed at age 25 in 1992 right before Fred Franz died, and that person then lived to 100. Of course the proverbial lifespan of "70-80 years" gives us 2037-2047 A.D. as the end date.

42

Creationism emails from a JW

by TheStumbler in

earlier this year, i received an email from a jw family member with a link to this video:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1ruhkgqjug.

i wrote a long reply debunking the video (mostly copying talkorigins info).

Apognophos

Yep, it's an interesting subject. I actually find the Chapter 1 creation story more attractive in a romantic sort of way when it's read correctly -- it starts off with darkness and water sloshing everywhere and then God puts it in order, exposes dry land, seals off the heavenly ocean, etc. Then there's the second, much less abstract creation account where God is just a potter working with clay, and going for walks in his Garden.

Ultimately though I think it requires an open mind as a pre-requisite to see these accounts for what they are. But once you see it, it's quite eye-opening and you realize you're peering into ancient cosmology and theology that no one actually believes anymore.

24

Can anyone tell me any narrative of having successfully avoided Baptism while being raised JW?

by SonoftheTrinity in

i just worry for my stepkids about their future that way..

Apognophos

Not to distract from the topic, but you guys who weren't interested in getting baptized -- weren't you worried about being destroyed at Armageddon?

42

Creationism emails from a JW

by TheStumbler in

earlier this year, i received an email from a jw family member with a link to this video:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1ruhkgqjug.

i wrote a long reply debunking the video (mostly copying talkorigins info).

Apognophos

Being a grammar Nazi doesn't make me any friends either

42

Creationism emails from a JW

by TheStumbler in

earlier this year, i received an email from a jw family member with a link to this video:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1ruhkgqjug.

i wrote a long reply debunking the video (mostly copying talkorigins info).

Apognophos

Brevity*

42

Creationism emails from a JW

by TheStumbler in

earlier this year, i received an email from a jw family member with a link to this video:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1ruhkgqjug.

i wrote a long reply debunking the video (mostly copying talkorigins info).

Apognophos

I'm still going to keep "Snopes"-ing people though I've done it "live" to people in car groups too when someone brings up misinformation and the others are buying into it. "Actually, I read about this on Snopes...". I hate looking like a smart-ass, but it has to be done.

102

Should I attend Kingdom Hall meetings to discreetly "preach"?

by CrytoJesus in

jw
friends

christians, should i attend kingdom hall meetings to discreetly "preach" to jws about the real jesus and the lies of the watchtower?.

.

i plan to go undercover and plant seeds into them.. .

Apognophos

JWIQ, you should probably start another topic for your question(s?)

28

I am going to pioneer after the holidays!

by snakeface in

jw
friends

yes, you heard right.. as you know, most christian organizations publish and distribute little tracts with their gospel message.

well they also make some that expose the lies of the wt, and explain how it is a cult.

even if people are not interested in the "gospel message" in these tracts, the tracts do a good job exposing the wt as a cult.. now, those of you who are now agnostic or athiests or just non-religious, please keep reading, to understand what i plan to do.... i am expecting to receive $$ for christmas.

Apognophos

I for one support your idea, snakeface. I have been thinking of doing the same once I am out of the organization (I can't give an anti-witness where people know me, for family reasons). It's worth it if it helps the occasional person who might have gotten drawn in. That being said, very few people are being drawn in these days, so it's hard to say how many people you might have to talk to before you reach one who was studying with, or vulnerable to, the Witnesses.

Then again, an educated friend or family member can also save someone who is interested in the JW religion, so when you factor in social connections, it raises the odds that someone will be helped. We've all experienced as JWs that situation where someone at the door showed interest and then abruptly changed their mind before we visited them again, and we knew it was because someone 'got to them' -- a family member or friend, spurred on by Satan no doubt Well, how did that person know to warn their relative/friend? We can be the ones to provide a warning that is passed on to that person.

As far as apathy goes, I think that the story of an ex-JW will be much more interesting to them than any JWs that ever came to their door. Personally, I have tried anonymously blanketing a street with TTATT leaflets through the mail, but it's hard to know how much good they will do. It's better to speak to people in person so they can hear your story. But as far as the leaflets go, I would suggest using a non-religious one unless the community is religious and close enough to that denomination. Otherwise it might make the householder feel like they're stuck between two people bickering. I like the secular approach used by the one on JWfacts: http://jwfacts.com/watchtower/pamphlet.php

42

Creationism emails from a JW

by TheStumbler in

earlier this year, i received an email from a jw family member with a link to this video:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1ruhkgqjug.

i wrote a long reply debunking the video (mostly copying talkorigins info).

Apognophos

Ha, I can relate to that, j dubb. Snopes is useful for many things, but not one's popularity with gullible acquaintances