Posts by konceptual99

34

cleveland ohio RC notes

by nowwhat? in

peak attendance 7100. baptised 38 mixed bag of old and young.

youngest age 10. saw no brothers with beards.

better than average .50% growth.

There is also no real indication of how many people have serious doubts and are essentially going through the motions. I know of at least 4 brothers who are not what I would call mentally out but have serious questions about things and are drifting in terms of reaching out because they can't face pushing things they are not sure about themselves. I suspect the true number of those in a similar position is much higher.

11

"For God Loved the World so much that he gave his only Begotten Son in order that ....faith ..not destroyed ..everlasting life.

by smiddy in

or is their an inconsistency / contradiction here somewhere .?

in genesis god allows satan after deceiving the first human pair to go relatively unpunished for thousands of years interacting between heaven and earth at will.. the so called punishment is not to take effect until thousands of years later.. in the meantime .. the wager ( ?

) between jehovah and satan over jobs loyalty in question ,and obviously satan still having communication with god in the heavens.

konceptual99

What Witnesses are conveniently choosing to forget and being conditioned to forget by the WTS is that the Bible contains the predictions for the end by their OWN interpretation.

It's Jesus that gives the signs of the times of the end. It's Jesus that talks about a generation. It's the Bible that gives a succession of events to note in Revelation. It's the Bible that sets up the establishment of a Kingdom to recover the situation lost in Eden.

Yes - the precise date is not recorded. Yes - there is counsel about the day coming as a thief in the night. But the Bible is apparently full of signs that would lead observant ones to conclude the time is close.

Yet now, whilst the supposed poor state of the world is used to make ones feel like something needs to change the fact that the Bible is clear about there being a start and, critically, an END to the last days is given less and less attention. People are told to have faith that it is imminent without any concrete evidence whilst not serving for a date whilst Jesus was crystal clear about a generation and other references like the days being needing to be CUT SHORT.

Either these mean something or they don't.

Given that the WTS cannot deny that they DO mean something then they are forced to simply go down the route of cognitive dissonance and encourage people not to think about it and kid themselves that actually timescales related to prophecies about the last times mean nothing other than it's imminent.

I guarantee that not one Witness will be able to provide a straight answer as to if the end if imminent or not, scriptural reasons for the understanding on the generation and what the reason for signs are if a date does not matter. They will deflect, obfuscate, deny, squirm, whirl - anything to avoid being straight since it simply means confusion.

If they refuse to say the end is imminent then they should watch Tony's closing remarks from the convention - "the end is imminent" - and then ask if they agree or not. As a side point - this to me is exactly like 1975 - the WTS making statements that they will never have to answer for. This is the video btw...

https://jw.servehttp.com/rc17.php?is=CO17_E_146_No52-41.mp4

They simply cannot have it both ways yet are trying their damnest to make it so.

11

"For God Loved the World so much that he gave his only Begotten Son in order that ....faith ..not destroyed ..everlasting life.

by smiddy in

or is their an inconsistency / contradiction here somewhere .?

in genesis god allows satan after deceiving the first human pair to go relatively unpunished for thousands of years interacting between heaven and earth at will.. the so called punishment is not to take effect until thousands of years later.. in the meantime .. the wager ( ?

) between jehovah and satan over jobs loyalty in question ,and obviously satan still having communication with god in the heavens.

konceptual99

Ah yes - you are right FedUp. The letter was in Feb this year.

They still may make the first step just not as a result of a formal yearly arrangement.

Rather, elders should use good judgment in determining when and how to make brief contact with disfellowshipped or disassociated individuals. For example, if a disfellowshipped individual gives some evidence of changing his ways, an elder could remind the individual of how he can return to Jehovah. Such brief contact could be made while an elder engages in the house-to-house ministry. While shopping, an elder may see a disfellowshipped person who ha not been contacted in years and choose to approach him. An older or infirm elder may find it more practical to make contact by telephone.

https://jw.servehttp.com/l2017.php?is=20170228LTE_us.pdf

Thanks for the reminder of the policy change.

24

Aust census: incomes: JWs falling further behind?

by shepherdless in

time for some more stats, for your interest and comments.... it has been well documented in the past that, as a group, incomes for jws are lower than virtually any other religion, in australia.

rather than repeat that exercise here, i set out some detail about the gap between jws and ordinary australians.. 1. jws typically earn much less.

here is a bar chart of income brackets, comparing jw incomes against other australians.

konceptual99

What slants them is the emphasis on pioneering from school, vocational training stopping at 18 rather than university, demonising of careers and career development and so on. [EDIT] - ultimately minimising education that can help them be financially astute.

Few young Witnesses have a good level of understanding of economics. They are told to rely on Jehovah, lead a so called "simple life", rather than make sound financial plans. Whilst debt is discouraged it becomes an inevitability for many who try and stick to the implied rules on what is an acceptable level and type of work yet long for the gadgets, possessions and holidays of those with more income.

Most of them never wanted to be in debt, they just aren't savvy enough to avoid it.

Don't forget as well that debt is not limited to Witnesses and it's often regardless of income. If you are financially astute you can have plenty of disposable income even on relatively low wages. Being born into a Witness family often means you never learn sound financial advice even if offered. The culture encourages ignorance.

11

"For God Loved the World so much that he gave his only Begotten Son in order that ....faith ..not destroyed ..everlasting life.

by smiddy in

or is their an inconsistency / contradiction here somewhere .?

in genesis god allows satan after deceiving the first human pair to go relatively unpunished for thousands of years interacting between heaven and earth at will.. the so called punishment is not to take effect until thousands of years later.. in the meantime .. the wager ( ?

) between jehovah and satan over jobs loyalty in question ,and obviously satan still having communication with god in the heavens.

konceptual99

Just playing devils advocate here...

There is nothing in JW rules that prevent elders having occasional communication with DFed ones. In fact they are told to catch up with them once a year. There is nothing to suggest that Jehovah or Jesus had anything other than occasional contact with Satan. On top of that, Satan and his demons had already been sent away from the primary influence of Jehovah in heaven.

Satan was not punished directly since he was the instigator of the rebellion and time is needed to see if his challenge holds water.

Satan has been allowed to influence the world of mankind to see if it can do better than without God. Jehovah has refused to interject in mankind's affairs and suffering so as not to be accused of loading the die. Although it is apparently OK for him to shift some sand onto an island so a KH can be built.

Jehovah and Jesus would need occasional dialogue with Satan otherwise they could be accused of acting unfairly.

As OTWO says, no big inconsistencies there if you are a WT supporter. The story can be as crazy as you like but if you love the show you'll keep watching.

24

Aust census: incomes: JWs falling further behind?

by shepherdless in

time for some more stats, for your interest and comments.... it has been well documented in the past that, as a group, incomes for jws are lower than virtually any other religion, in australia.

rather than repeat that exercise here, i set out some detail about the gap between jws and ordinary australians.. 1. jws typically earn much less.

here is a bar chart of income brackets, comparing jw incomes against other australians.

konceptual99

I'm not really sure what we disagree about Ruby

My original response was related to the question of income and areas. In the main, with some exceptions, I would suggest that in most urban areas (which is essentially what most of England is) location is a result of income not the other way around. There are areas like the Highlands, rural areas of Wales and pockets in England that location may drive earning potential however IMHO this does not hold true for much of the country.

I think here in the UK geography means that in the main (especially in England), low and high income communities are often close to each other. This is mirrored in urban areas of even geographically large countries like Australia.

JWs are often in lower income brackets.

JWs often have less income going towards long term investments, pensions etc. This means more disposable income however this is offset in more recent times by the high cost of housing.

Whilst I see well off Witnesses with well paid, professional jobs and those with low levels of debt (regardless of income level/job type) there is no doubt in my mind that for the majority of younger Witnesses who are working in lower earning jobs they will have much higher levels of debt than their parents would have had at a similar point in their lives.

I don't know about teens leaving and coming back other to say that I don't think that there are many teens who leave, get an education, enter a well paid job and decide to come back in when they have a family. I don't think the recent scenarios played out in the WT publications and videos about those that rebel, leave, make sme bad choices and come back after some pain are fair from the truth about the majority of those teens that do come back.

I think Shepherdess' OP data would mirror the UK.

24

Aust census: incomes: JWs falling further behind?

by shepherdless in

time for some more stats, for your interest and comments.... it has been well documented in the past that, as a group, incomes for jws are lower than virtually any other religion, in australia.

rather than repeat that exercise here, i set out some detail about the gap between jws and ordinary australians.. 1. jws typically earn much less.

here is a bar chart of income brackets, comparing jw incomes against other australians.

konceptual99

I think it varies Ruby.

I know JWs who are very comfortably off with no or small levels of debt. I know window cleaners who have cleared their mortgages by 40, live in small properties and have a comfortable standard of living. I know Witnesses with successful business, those with 6 figure salaries in the City etc.

I know plenty of Witnesses who live in their overdraft, have credit card debt and struggle to make ends meet.

I have known those who are by UK standards, poor. Very little cash, poorly paid and so on. I agree this is rare.

I agree that some Witnesses fail to provide for their future in the sense of big pension contributions, investments and even insurances. Only recently I know of a brother who died from cancer leaving a wife and two teenage children and he had no life insurance. I know of a family member who does not have similar cover. All because wages aren't enough. You can't argue that this is the WT fault as they have counselled about having suitable cover but the reality is that for many the wages of a tradesman is not enough to do everything.

I agree that few Witnesses are living on the poverty line however there are plenty who aren't in a good position financially.

24

Aust census: incomes: JWs falling further behind?

by shepherdless in

time for some more stats, for your interest and comments.... it has been well documented in the past that, as a group, incomes for jws are lower than virtually any other religion, in australia.

rather than repeat that exercise here, i set out some detail about the gap between jws and ordinary australians.. 1. jws typically earn much less.

here is a bar chart of income brackets, comparing jw incomes against other australians.

konceptual99

I completely understand the issue regarding employment migration in large areas. It's obvious it happens in a country the size of Australia but it also happens in the UK. For example, the Welsh valleys were highly dependant on mining and when that industry was decimated in the 80s then people moved out to find work. Even now those areas suffer low employment rates, pay is low and it's difficult to find well paying work very close by.

However it is possible to find higher paying work not far from the Welsh valleys. Cardiff is a big city with lots of opportunities. It's not that far. People can, find a job in Cardiff that they don't even have to move away from home for. If anything, the smaller scale of the country allows people to get better paid work without having to relocate hundreds of miles.

The example of the old couple is perhaps true of a time gone by but not true anymore. London is full of people that travel 50, 60, 70 miles into work daily. All the cities bring large numbers of people into them from wide catchment areas.

It's true that the UK has pockets of highly deprived areas and I would agree that the geographic impact is not the same as Australia however for the majority of people they are in areas where low and high income are in relative close proximity. Where population density is similar in Oz (all the major urban areas) then I would say it's very similar as well. The difference is that most people don't have to relocate vast distances to find work.

You will note that my comment was qualified to be discussing urban areas. My observation would be that Sydney and London are very similar in this. You have areas of wealth very close to areas of low income. For example, Grenfell Towers and Holland Park - Sydney CBD and the social housing at Barangaroo (which I know is under threat of "gentrification"). You have housing that has shot up in price over the years to the point where the housing ladder is not accessible for many young people in areas that formally were affordable.

So yes - areas of the NT in Australia (for example) are deprived as are areas of the UK. However it is not true to say that everyone in the north of England is poor. There's plenty of wealth available. Naturally earnings are higher in London but not for those in public sector jobs for example. There is a weighting but not enough to compensate for the bubble. There are plenty of poor people in the south of England.

The comment on debt is very valid and there are many outwardly comfortably off people at high risk should interest rates increase or their credit cards get called in.

Of course, the main point is that the data presented from the Aus census does illustrate a clear difference between JWs and non-JWs. I suspect a similar pattern exists here in the UK.

24

Aust census: incomes: JWs falling further behind?

by shepherdless in

time for some more stats, for your interest and comments.... it has been well documented in the past that, as a group, incomes for jws are lower than virtually any other religion, in australia.

rather than repeat that exercise here, i set out some detail about the gap between jws and ordinary australians.. 1. jws typically earn much less.

here is a bar chart of income brackets, comparing jw incomes against other australians.

konceptual99

what if there are only low paying jobs/or very few high paying jobs in an area. wouldn't that be a cause of an income level for that area?

Depends on the area. In most metropolitan/urban areas you can have low and high cost housing within small geographic areas with common access to both higher and lower paying jobs.

On top of that low paying jobs are always present within higher wealth housing areas through service industry jobs like cleaning, maintenance, shop work etc.

People don't tend to live directly where they work.

51

I was impressed by part of today's symposium entitled ' Safeguard your children from what is evil'

by UnshackleTheChains in

well i have to give credit where credit is due.

it was the part of today's symposium - build a house that will endure.

the part i was most impressed with was 'safeguard your children from "what is evil".

konceptual99

I sometimes wonder if some people might be happier if the WTS never changed so they could continue to hate them for being evil ...
We should applaud any improvement and any movement toward doing things better. Whatever is more likely to protect than risk children is good, yes - even if it's the WTS that is doing it.

I agree with the principle of what you say and no one can say the talk at the convention or even minor progress with their child protection policies are bad things.

What is crying shame however is how slow they are to make meaningful change. It does not take much lateral thinking to come up with a strategy that pulls the rug from under the vast majority of criticisms, leaves in place the need to follow their interpretation of biblical requires over two witnesses for congregation action, infuses an air of transparency and openness whilst still minimising the risk of opening up the legal flood gates.

Don't say they are a organisation slow to change. This is the organisation that pulled the rug on millions, if not billions of $ worth of construction overnight. This is the organisation that changed it's brand and it's communication methods in a matter of months.

The BBC radio interview, posted elsewhere, with the head of the Charity Commission was telling. Whilst they are getting improved cooperation from the WTS in the UK they made the point that they have never had to face the amount of obstructive litigation from an organisation until they engaged the WTBTS of Britain and the trustees of the New Moston congregation. The organisation only stopped when they no longer had recourse to the courts and when it was going to hurt them more and more when taken in context with the ARC and other negative publicity worldwide.

Regardless, they cannot seem to get out of this mentality of everything actually being OK. Any change for the positive is good but it remains simply incomprehensible as to why the organisation is incapable of a far more proactive approach to progressing the child protection policies.

The question of their real willingness to take on board advice and make appropriate change has to be raised.