Posts by konceptual99

43

New Announcement At The 2017 - DF'd People To Sit At The Back Of The Hall

by pale.emperor in

has anyone else heard this?

a poster on another thread said it's a new rule brought in at this years convention.. last year they were told to shun even non df people and now this?

a religion cant force someone where to plonk their ass surely?.

konceptual99

I should add that the above article has a footnote to confirm it updates previous direction in The Watchtower of April 1, 1953, page 223.

This is referenced by Blondie in this thread...

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/253276/_post/4747564

43

New Announcement At The 2017 - DF'd People To Sit At The Back Of The Hall

by pale.emperor in

has anyone else heard this?

a poster on another thread said it's a new rule brought in at this years convention.. last year they were told to shun even non df people and now this?

a religion cant force someone where to plonk their ass surely?.

konceptual99

OK - it was longer ago than I thought but here is the article about where DF'ed ones can sit.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20130815/disfellowshipped-child-seating-location/

Although the title refers to children it is clear that a DF'ed person of any age can sit anywhere just so long as they respect where they are.

43

New Announcement At The 2017 - DF'd People To Sit At The Back Of The Hall

by pale.emperor in

has anyone else heard this?

a poster on another thread said it's a new rule brought in at this years convention.. last year they were told to shun even non df people and now this?

a religion cant force someone where to plonk their ass surely?.

konceptual99

They only published info to the contrary in the past year or two.

34

cleveland ohio RC notes

by nowwhat? in

peak attendance 7100. baptised 38 mixed bag of old and young.

youngest age 10. saw no brothers with beards.

better than average .50% growth.

There is also no real indication of how many people have serious doubts and are essentially going through the motions. I know of at least 4 brothers who are not what I would call mentally out but have serious questions about things and are drifting in terms of reaching out because they can't face pushing things they are not sure about themselves. I suspect the true number of those in a similar position is much higher.

11

"For God Loved the World so much that he gave his only Begotten Son in order that ....faith ..not destroyed ..everlasting life.

by smiddy in

or is their an inconsistency / contradiction here somewhere .?

in genesis god allows satan after deceiving the first human pair to go relatively unpunished for thousands of years interacting between heaven and earth at will.. the so called punishment is not to take effect until thousands of years later.. in the meantime .. the wager ( ?

) between jehovah and satan over jobs loyalty in question ,and obviously satan still having communication with god in the heavens.

konceptual99

What Witnesses are conveniently choosing to forget and being conditioned to forget by the WTS is that the Bible contains the predictions for the end by their OWN interpretation.

It's Jesus that gives the signs of the times of the end. It's Jesus that talks about a generation. It's the Bible that gives a succession of events to note in Revelation. It's the Bible that sets up the establishment of a Kingdom to recover the situation lost in Eden.

Yes - the precise date is not recorded. Yes - there is counsel about the day coming as a thief in the night. But the Bible is apparently full of signs that would lead observant ones to conclude the time is close.

Yet now, whilst the supposed poor state of the world is used to make ones feel like something needs to change the fact that the Bible is clear about there being a start and, critically, an END to the last days is given less and less attention. People are told to have faith that it is imminent without any concrete evidence whilst not serving for a date whilst Jesus was crystal clear about a generation and other references like the days being needing to be CUT SHORT.

Either these mean something or they don't.

Given that the WTS cannot deny that they DO mean something then they are forced to simply go down the route of cognitive dissonance and encourage people not to think about it and kid themselves that actually timescales related to prophecies about the last times mean nothing other than it's imminent.

I guarantee that not one Witness will be able to provide a straight answer as to if the end if imminent or not, scriptural reasons for the understanding on the generation and what the reason for signs are if a date does not matter. They will deflect, obfuscate, deny, squirm, whirl - anything to avoid being straight since it simply means confusion.

If they refuse to say the end is imminent then they should watch Tony's closing remarks from the convention - "the end is imminent" - and then ask if they agree or not. As a side point - this to me is exactly like 1975 - the WTS making statements that they will never have to answer for. This is the video btw...

https://jw.servehttp.com/rc17.php?is=CO17_E_146_No52-41.mp4

They simply cannot have it both ways yet are trying their damnest to make it so.

11

"For God Loved the World so much that he gave his only Begotten Son in order that ....faith ..not destroyed ..everlasting life.

by smiddy in

or is their an inconsistency / contradiction here somewhere .?

in genesis god allows satan after deceiving the first human pair to go relatively unpunished for thousands of years interacting between heaven and earth at will.. the so called punishment is not to take effect until thousands of years later.. in the meantime .. the wager ( ?

) between jehovah and satan over jobs loyalty in question ,and obviously satan still having communication with god in the heavens.

konceptual99

Ah yes - you are right FedUp. The letter was in Feb this year.

They still may make the first step just not as a result of a formal yearly arrangement.

Rather, elders should use good judgment in determining when and how to make brief contact with disfellowshipped or disassociated individuals. For example, if a disfellowshipped individual gives some evidence of changing his ways, an elder could remind the individual of how he can return to Jehovah. Such brief contact could be made while an elder engages in the house-to-house ministry. While shopping, an elder may see a disfellowshipped person who ha not been contacted in years and choose to approach him. An older or infirm elder may find it more practical to make contact by telephone.

https://jw.servehttp.com/l2017.php?is=20170228LTE_us.pdf

Thanks for the reminder of the policy change.

24

Aust census: incomes: JWs falling further behind?

by shepherdless in

time for some more stats, for your interest and comments.... it has been well documented in the past that, as a group, incomes for jws are lower than virtually any other religion, in australia.

rather than repeat that exercise here, i set out some detail about the gap between jws and ordinary australians.. 1. jws typically earn much less.

here is a bar chart of income brackets, comparing jw incomes against other australians.

konceptual99

What slants them is the emphasis on pioneering from school, vocational training stopping at 18 rather than university, demonising of careers and career development and so on. [EDIT] - ultimately minimising education that can help them be financially astute.

Few young Witnesses have a good level of understanding of economics. They are told to rely on Jehovah, lead a so called "simple life", rather than make sound financial plans. Whilst debt is discouraged it becomes an inevitability for many who try and stick to the implied rules on what is an acceptable level and type of work yet long for the gadgets, possessions and holidays of those with more income.

Most of them never wanted to be in debt, they just aren't savvy enough to avoid it.

Don't forget as well that debt is not limited to Witnesses and it's often regardless of income. If you are financially astute you can have plenty of disposable income even on relatively low wages. Being born into a Witness family often means you never learn sound financial advice even if offered. The culture encourages ignorance.

11

"For God Loved the World so much that he gave his only Begotten Son in order that ....faith ..not destroyed ..everlasting life.

by smiddy in

or is their an inconsistency / contradiction here somewhere .?

in genesis god allows satan after deceiving the first human pair to go relatively unpunished for thousands of years interacting between heaven and earth at will.. the so called punishment is not to take effect until thousands of years later.. in the meantime .. the wager ( ?

) between jehovah and satan over jobs loyalty in question ,and obviously satan still having communication with god in the heavens.

konceptual99

Just playing devils advocate here...

There is nothing in JW rules that prevent elders having occasional communication with DFed ones. In fact they are told to catch up with them once a year. There is nothing to suggest that Jehovah or Jesus had anything other than occasional contact with Satan. On top of that, Satan and his demons had already been sent away from the primary influence of Jehovah in heaven.

Satan was not punished directly since he was the instigator of the rebellion and time is needed to see if his challenge holds water.

Satan has been allowed to influence the world of mankind to see if it can do better than without God. Jehovah has refused to interject in mankind's affairs and suffering so as not to be accused of loading the die. Although it is apparently OK for him to shift some sand onto an island so a KH can be built.

Jehovah and Jesus would need occasional dialogue with Satan otherwise they could be accused of acting unfairly.

As OTWO says, no big inconsistencies there if you are a WT supporter. The story can be as crazy as you like but if you love the show you'll keep watching.

24

Aust census: incomes: JWs falling further behind?

by shepherdless in

time for some more stats, for your interest and comments.... it has been well documented in the past that, as a group, incomes for jws are lower than virtually any other religion, in australia.

rather than repeat that exercise here, i set out some detail about the gap between jws and ordinary australians.. 1. jws typically earn much less.

here is a bar chart of income brackets, comparing jw incomes against other australians.

konceptual99

I'm not really sure what we disagree about Ruby

My original response was related to the question of income and areas. In the main, with some exceptions, I would suggest that in most urban areas (which is essentially what most of England is) location is a result of income not the other way around. There are areas like the Highlands, rural areas of Wales and pockets in England that location may drive earning potential however IMHO this does not hold true for much of the country.

I think here in the UK geography means that in the main (especially in England), low and high income communities are often close to each other. This is mirrored in urban areas of even geographically large countries like Australia.

JWs are often in lower income brackets.

JWs often have less income going towards long term investments, pensions etc. This means more disposable income however this is offset in more recent times by the high cost of housing.

Whilst I see well off Witnesses with well paid, professional jobs and those with low levels of debt (regardless of income level/job type) there is no doubt in my mind that for the majority of younger Witnesses who are working in lower earning jobs they will have much higher levels of debt than their parents would have had at a similar point in their lives.

I don't know about teens leaving and coming back other to say that I don't think that there are many teens who leave, get an education, enter a well paid job and decide to come back in when they have a family. I don't think the recent scenarios played out in the WT publications and videos about those that rebel, leave, make sme bad choices and come back after some pain are fair from the truth about the majority of those teens that do come back.

I think Shepherdess' OP data would mirror the UK.

24

Aust census: incomes: JWs falling further behind?

by shepherdless in

time for some more stats, for your interest and comments.... it has been well documented in the past that, as a group, incomes for jws are lower than virtually any other religion, in australia.

rather than repeat that exercise here, i set out some detail about the gap between jws and ordinary australians.. 1. jws typically earn much less.

here is a bar chart of income brackets, comparing jw incomes against other australians.

konceptual99

I think it varies Ruby.

I know JWs who are very comfortably off with no or small levels of debt. I know window cleaners who have cleared their mortgages by 40, live in small properties and have a comfortable standard of living. I know Witnesses with successful business, those with 6 figure salaries in the City etc.

I know plenty of Witnesses who live in their overdraft, have credit card debt and struggle to make ends meet.

I have known those who are by UK standards, poor. Very little cash, poorly paid and so on. I agree this is rare.

I agree that some Witnesses fail to provide for their future in the sense of big pension contributions, investments and even insurances. Only recently I know of a brother who died from cancer leaving a wife and two teenage children and he had no life insurance. I know of a family member who does not have similar cover. All because wages aren't enough. You can't argue that this is the WT fault as they have counselled about having suitable cover but the reality is that for many the wages of a tradesman is not enough to do everything.

I agree that few Witnesses are living on the poverty line however there are plenty who aren't in a good position financially.