Help please

by jhine in

hi , would someone help me please with some info about the nwt .

during my study time l have been reading john 1:1-14 and colossians 1:15-17 .

both these passages indicate that jesus was not created as the wt asserts .

The JWs want Jesus to be a created angel and so they mess with the biblical Logos theology. Since 1953, the main character of the New Testament, our Lord and God, is not to receive worship according to the JW leaders. God has a different opinion in Hebrews 1:6, Philippians 2:11 etc. They teach this being that is supposed to have created all [other] things is "one of the chief princes" (Daniel 10:13). Unable to find a teaching concerning this created being in the old testament, they must take Proverbs 8 out of context, it is a poetical story of wisdom vs. foolishness. It is very unlikely their guess is right, to put it mildly.

51

Help please

by jhine in

hi , would someone help me please with some info about the nwt .

during my study time l have been reading john 1:1-14 and colossians 1:15-17 .

both these passages indicate that jesus was not created as the wt asserts .

JoenB75

51

Help please

by jhine in

hi , would someone help me please with some info about the nwt .

during my study time l have been reading john 1:1-14 and colossians 1:15-17 .

both these passages indicate that jesus was not created as the wt asserts .

JoenB75

Oh yes I can only imagine translation is very complicated. Good thing we have many versions in English. I remember the Christadelphians did not recommend the NIV despite its beautiful language. It has an Evangelical bias. One example is when the NIV in Phil 2:6 says "in the very nature God" and then the footnote gives the usual translation "in the form of God". Today having a Modalist understanding of God and believing the passage describes the incarnation of the very God, I would enjoy translation but in the old days I would believe it was a biased one.

25

Jesus said Truly I tell you This Day...

by JohnTron72 in

adam was told not to eat from the tree of knowledge for upon the very day of eating from it, he would die.

i had someone say that god lied because, adam didn't die that day but, the scriptures say to god a day is as a thousand years so, since adam lived 900+ years after eating , he indeed died within god's view of a day.

methuselah the oldest to ever live 969 years still within god's set time of a day.

JoenB75

Actually JW says creation might be billions of years old. But creationism is essentially reading a western mindset into the Bible. Rabbinal sources go about it a little differently

51

Help please

by jhine in

hi , would someone help me please with some info about the nwt .

during my study time l have been reading john 1:1-14 and colossians 1:15-17 .

both these passages indicate that jesus was not created as the wt asserts .

JoenB75

slimboyfat,

I wonder what you think it means that all things were made through the Son. You say Jesus is distinguished from the creator. I dont see the word creator in any of the verses you quote. God the Father and Jesus Christ are different revelations but they are certainly both the creator. If the Son was not the creator, what sense would it make to say all things were made through him. I suspect the reason for the language is Logos theology. Logos is the cause of all things and philosophically spoken of as something God possess.

51

Help please

by jhine in

hi , would someone help me please with some info about the nwt .

during my study time l have been reading john 1:1-14 and colossians 1:15-17 .

both these passages indicate that jesus was not created as the wt asserts .

JoenB75

Luke 3:15 The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts if John might possibly be the Messiah.
The context seems not to say "the people" were all Judea, but the people listening to John.
John 8:2 the same, it even says "all the people gathered around him", not Judea or the universe. It is just like someone says to me "did you eat the apples" and I reply "I ate them all".

Luke 4:1 He was teaching in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.
"everyone" was obviously everyone in the synagogues. Like "I went to meet all the people in the Kingdom Hall".

Luke 11:37-41 While Jesus was speaking, a Pharisee asked him to dine with him, so he went in and reclined at table. The Pharisee was astonished to see that he did not first wash before dinner. And the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You fools! Did not he who made the outside make the inside also? But give as alms those things that are within, and behold, everything is clean for you.
If the pharisees where acting clean both inside and outside, they were clean all over. Everything is within context of the spoken subject.

11

For heaven's sake , Jan 1-5 weekly program

by waton in

january one.

genesis one wt mental gymnastics.

gen 1:1 earth created in the beginning, ?

JoenB75

We also got Leviathan in Isaiah 27:1 and Rahab in Psalm 89:10 etc. Chaos monsters subjected in Genesis 1:3 onward and also nations in prophecy that Israel needed deliverance from. So no, science essentialy a 17th century invention, is not the topic of the Scriptures.

11

For heaven's sake , Jan 1-5 weekly program

by waton in

january one.

genesis one wt mental gymnastics.

gen 1:1 earth created in the beginning, ?

JoenB75

I remember back in time my first biblical interpretation was that Genesis 1 was poetry and dels with the Almightys subjection of chaos and the bringing of order. The earth is a tool or co creator. Calvin in his 16th century Genesis commentary says it is not scientific but phenomenologic and speaking to all men. After all this was how they saw it back then. if there were no waters above, how could it rain 🤭. This is only one of several creation accounts in the Bible. This gets more attention being on page 1. Later in the Bible we have some interesting uses of creation language. In Jeremiah 4 etc creation language is used relating to the judgment of Israel and some say Genesis 1 is really about creation of old covenant.

52

How Much of the WT Teaching Did You Believe?

by Ding in

some people on this forum have said that they never really believed any aspect of wt teaching, that they couldn't wait to get free of it all.. others seems to have been really gung ho, believing it all until something happened that got you questioning "the truth.".

i would say my own high water mark was about 50%, which put me squarely on the fence, trying to decide if i should be in or out.. how about you?.

JoenB75

Very interesting topic. We left when I was about 15. I was born in infamous 1975. I remember JW as boring. My parents had issues from bad childhoods that the religion did not help with. I was an understimulated isolated kid who was dragged along to boring meetings and even more boring conversions. I remember looking at the schedule for the lovely spiritual banquet lol and dreaming of time to reach 6 pm or so so we could go home. There were a few rewards such as getting to eat sausages with no blood, a drama that sometimes included people in ancient clothes or occassionaly going out with some other old JWs and eating in a nice restaurant. I was rarely dragged out to ministry. I hated it and showed no progress. I was a late child and my parents did not go from door to door in my life time. I did go to some study with an elder JW elder and his wife. Various elders did try to save me. I remember I offended them by saying I thought it was unfair all this Armageddon stuff. In reality I meant my isolated life getting dragged to the hall, no birthdays etc. I dont recall ever reading in the Bible except a few times when dad forced me to publically read loud a piece from the Bible in the theocratic school with a short comment he had written. It was a bit comical. I had to rehearse before him 2-3 times. In my twenties I began to believe and became the Bible nerd. My starting point was Russell's studies in scriptures my father held in high esteem. But I quickly rejected Russell. I was a Christadelphian for a short while and they taught me to read the Bible in context. But alas shortly after Christadelphian baptism I came to realize they had their errors so I left. Christadelphians disagree om many things unlike jw leadership. My misfortune was running into some old school hardliners. Had I met the more liberal or free spirited kind, it might have been different. I retained an interest in the history and doctrines of both groups and often think of the exchanges I had with my father when I started believe in the end of his life.

51

Help please

by jhine in

hi , would someone help me please with some info about the nwt .

during my study time l have been reading john 1:1-14 and colossians 1:15-17 .

both these passages indicate that jesus was not created as the wt asserts .

JoenB75

jhine,

There are some that want "all things" or the "world" to be a few things and as we are told translation is complicated.

But I think is a good thing to consider the context. Colossians 1:13-20 seems to speak of the relation of the Son to all things. Paul really seems to painstakingly say the Son is number one in ALL Things. It would be strange if all things were really a code for few defined things. But you will find people that really believe Colossians 1:13-20 speaks of Son's creation of the saints only in an exaggerated language. Calvinists often believe the world in John 3:16 is the elect saints:

http://reformedanswers.org/answer.asp/file/45604

In 1 Peter 4:7 we read the end of all things is near. That is a difficult text, but I dont believe it can mean a few things. It must be all things within a context. I believe the context is the old world. JWs believe that is just around the corner, as Preterist I believe the last days of the old world was about 30-70 AD.

In Romans 8:19 we read that the creation eagerly awaits the manifestation of the sons of God. Many rationalize that into the saints eagerly await their glory. Not surprisingly we are some that disagree and take Paul on his word. The old Calvinist Charles Hodge saw this too in his amazing commentary that sadly did not include Colossians:

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/hdg/romans-8.html

I conclusion I will go very far to argue that all things mean all things within their context. So if I spoke to JWs concerning John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16, I would not have an A Bomb for them but I would say that it would be very odd that they would be say that a) a creature is part of the creation and b) that the cause of all things, Logos, is a creature.

Michael is "one of the chief princes" Daniel 10:13.

JoenB75

Posts by JoenB75