Posts by peacefulpete

56

Can God Change his Mind?

by peacefulpete in

is 31:yet he also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract his words.. 1 sam 15: furthermore, the eternal one of israel does not lie or change his mind, for he is not man who changes his mind.. numbers 23: god is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind.

does he speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?.

when the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

peacefulpete

Sea breeze....An example of an unconditional declaration of God is the Lord’s promise to David, “Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever” (2 Samuel 7:16). No conditions were stated or implied. No matter what David did or did not do, the word of the Lord would come to pass.

That is actually a classic example of later redaction changing what appears in some texts as unconditional into a conditional statement after the Exile.

Psalm 132:

The Lord swore an oath to David,
a sure oath he will not revoke:
“One of your own descendants
I will place on your throne."

Then we see the promise modified in the next verse:

If your sons keep my covenant
and the statutes I teach them,
then their sons will sit
on your throne for ever and ever.

Similarly, 1 Kings 2, in contrast to 2 Samuel, makes clear the author understood the promise to be conditional:

When David’s time to die was near, he told his son Solomon, 2 “I am going the way of all the earth. So be strong. Show yourself to be a man. 3 Do what the Lord your God tells you. Walk in His ways. Keep all His Laws and His Word, by what is written in the Law of Moses. Then you will do well in all that you do and in every place you go. 4 Then the Lord will keep His promise to me. He has said to me, ‘Your sons must be careful of their way, to walk before Me in truth with all their heart and soul. If they do, you will never be without a man on the throne of Israel.’

It is a fine example of how when the exile occurred many of the previous national traditions were reinterpreted or modified.

56

Can God Change his Mind?

by peacefulpete in

is 31:yet he also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract his words.. 1 sam 15: furthermore, the eternal one of israel does not lie or change his mind, for he is not man who changes his mind.. numbers 23: god is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind.

does he speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?.

when the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

peacefulpete

The Jonah story naturally comes to mind. The message of the obvious satire is that if only Jonah had not been successful in converting Ninevah, the Assyrians would never have conquered Israel. For God was determined to destroy Ninevah, the later capital of the Assyrian empire and birthplace of Sennacherib. The Persian period author was a master humorist. He likely intended to frame the story around the probably historical prophet Jonah of Israel who according to 2 Kings advised the Baal worshipping King Jeroboam II to pursue an expanded kingdom when Assyria was occupied with rebellions elsewhere. The very actions that triggered a retaking of Israel by Sennacherib. It's all an obvious parody with giant fish, brooding prophets, miraculous shade plants, caricatures of piety (including fasting cattle) and Yahweh worshiping Ninevites.

I my opinion, this piece may have served the theological purpose of mocking the notion of national uniqueness and divine justice. The Persian period when this was written saw many of the Jewish literati struggling with these concepts.

56

Can God Change his Mind?

by peacefulpete in

is 31:yet he also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract his words.. 1 sam 15: furthermore, the eternal one of israel does not lie or change his mind, for he is not man who changes his mind.. numbers 23: god is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind.

does he speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?.

when the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

peacefulpete

Is 31:Yet He also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract His words.
1 Sam 15: Furthermore, the Eternal One of Israel does not lie or change His mind, for He is not man who changes his mind.
Numbers 23: God is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes His mind. Does He speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?

When the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

The prophets of course do the actual pronouncements, purportedly speaking for a god. What happens when the pronouncements of judgement do not happen? This was an issue for prophets. Were they to be denounced as "false" prophets? Was the prophetic pronouncement of judgement open to reinterpretation? Or perhaps the pronouncement's failure was not a prophet's failure but due to God's changing his mind?

Is that how you think of God? Someone who pronounces judgement without all the evidence and so he is given to changing his mind later?

Despite absolute statements like the opening quotations, the Bible is filled with examples of pronounced judgements that did not happen. In some particularly anthropomorphic cases this is because God is flattered and manipulated into changing his judgement. In other cases, the explanation is offered that the person or nation repented and therefore God changed his mind, taking back his words of judgement.

Doesn't this strike you as a very human thing to do? We have a system of justice that usually works adequately but is limited by our inability to "read hearts", know all things accurately and foresee the future. Judgements are overturned when it is learned that a sentence was pronounced based upon incomplete evidence. Is God similarly limited?

Jeremiah 18 famously reads:

6 “O Israel, can I not do to you as this potter has done to his clay? As the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand. 7 If I announce that a certain nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down, and destroyed, 8 but then that nation renounces its evil ways, I will not destroy it as I had planned. 9 And if I announce that I will plant and build up a certain nation or kingdom, 10 but then that nation turns to evil and refuses to obey me, I will not bless it as I said I would.

Clearly here the author tried to walk a fine line, his and earlier prophets' pronouncements of judgment and blessing were intended to be understood as possibilities, pending future, more complete, evidence.

IOW "God's judgements are certain to happen, but.........."

So then, 2000 years or so have passed since the pronouncement of imminent destruction of the nations of the world.

Might not someone conclude that God "changed his mind" and not do as he "had planned"?

Could this be a solution for sects like the WT? Simply emphasize passages like Jeremiah 18 and suggest God was impressed by the progress humans have made enough to postpone his plans to destroy them.

17

"Everyone Wants To Leave"

by NotFormer in

a thread about steve hassan re-emerged and got me looking him up.

his wikipedia entry had a point under "criticism" that there is an underlying assumption in his approach that all members of high control groups ultimately want to leave*.. while it is generally believed that there are a lot of pimos still attending, doing field service and giving lip service to the wt, i doubt that everyone within the congregations want to get out.

it's not always internally and logically consistent, but it's been around long enough for enough workarounds to make it tolerable to emerge.. what do you think?

peacefulpete

Everyone wishes it was true. Some still hold onto the hope

Both my wife and I deeply wished it was not true, because it was a horrific concept. Killing billions so that some few, who we knew all too well were just ordinary people no more worthy than anyone else. It was such a relief to learn it was all a sick delusion.

27

Irán attacks....

by mikeflood in

just a moment ago irán started to attack israel, guess they're gonna end in ruins because israel has a way better army than other country in the region and the support of the us....hope the gas prices don't increase too much.... wonder how the borg gonna spin it..

peacefulpete

anonyMous...the economic sanctions were not lifted.

“None of Iran’s money held in restricted accounts overseas has gone to Iran, and we have not freed up any cash to Iran. Any notion to the contrary is false and misleading.” the State Department told The Post in a statement Sunday. “That money is held in restricted accounts overseas with strict oversight and in close coordination between the Departments of Treasury and State.”

The Iranian response was actually measured by design. And immediately after they made clear the matter was settled in their estimation. It's now up to Israel, hopefully an escalation can be averted.

40

Was it Designed?

by Jeffro in

the jw website is currently featuring a piece: the shell of the diabolical ironclad beetle—was it designed?

it is part of their regular tedious 'was it designed?

' series that purports that very very specific animal species must have been specifically designed because of some seemingly amazing feature.. but they seem completely unaware that this directly contradicts their notion that only very broad 'kinds' were required on the mythical 'ark'.

peacefulpete

Ask how something so obvious could have been overlooked by the writers. Or better,ask how the writers assumed no one among their readers would notice the obvious.

6

Open letter to all JWs

by EdLogan in

jw
friends

it is useless for you to contact me, i already know that according to the new update of the governing body, you can contact me.. but the problem is... you can only invite me to meetings, and at most say "hello" once i'm there.. i already know.. so, if you really want to know how i'm doing, even if it's irrelevant for the purposes of this contact, i'll tell you.. i am not well.

i'm depressed and full of psychotropic drugs.

of course, being isolated from everyone i knew and loved didn't help.. here's how i am.. and for a thousand reasons, there is no question of becoming an "associate" in the congregation again.. ergo, it's useless.. there's no point in contacting me, because that's the only goal.. it's not out of a rush of love.

peacefulpete

Your words reflect the feelings of many who have visited here. According to a traditional reckoning this is the 4th stage of grief, the 5th is acceptance. May the 5th come speedily for you.

7

Happy Easter Everyone !

by Sea Breeze in

and as a reminder to all my atheist friends, here's a list of 12 facts on the resurrection most scholars (skeptic, jewish and otherwise) agree to.

2000 years ago a man announced that he would be killed and while he was dead, he would resurrect himself from the dead.

just wow!.

peacefulpete

Happy Easter. May everyone enjoy time with family and friends or celebrate the new beginnings and potential of spring. And chocolate bunnies aren't bad either.

42

Will I be disfellowshippwd

by Sydney in

y'all i am an unmedicated bipolar.

i had a mania streak and slept with my bf who is of the world.

i am pregnant from this.

peacefulpete

Seriously ask what is really important to you. Your new love and the one way, or a church that you already recognize as judgmental and cold.

76

Rekindled Light — The Narrative Structure of the Hexaemeron (Genesis 1:1–31)

by Mebaqqer2 in

i used to comment here many years ago when i had an interest in biblical research in relation to jehovah’s witnesses.

these days my biblical research is little concerned with jehovah’s witnesses.

i feel my time is better spent researching the diachronistic development of the biblical text and ascertaining what the biblical writers and editors intended in the times in which they lived.. i have recently placed a summary diagram for a paper that i have written with original research entitled the narrative structure of the hexaemeron on academia.edu.

peacefulpete

Ok , I see you actually did respond to it.