peacefulpete

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Posts by peacefulpete

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  18

  Out of the Mouths of Vampires

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  one of the most quoted and loved passages of the bible has an unexpected textual history.

  at matt 21:16 jesus is made to say:.

  have you never read, ‘from the mouths of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise for yourself’?”.

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  peacefulpete

  Mark is Catholic like Bishop Spong was Episcopalian. I appreciate your pursuing the topic, I still can't agree. I read Mark to be saying the Jewish version of the myth need not necessarily be the exact same as the Ugarit. As a related yet unique culture, it almost certainly wasn't.

  
  

  His books are hardly the stuff Catholic Apologists would write. Anyway, it is being proposed as a possible solution to what many have felt was a problem. The "Vampire" in the title of my post of course was mine. Discussions about the later Jewish Alukah mythology often uses the term vampire.

  
  

  
  

  The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts

  
  

  The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel (The Biblical Resource Series (BRS))
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  18

  Out of the Mouths of Vampires

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  one of the most quoted and loved passages of the bible has an unexpected textual history.

  at matt 21:16 jesus is made to say:.

  have you never read, ‘from the mouths of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise for yourself’?”.

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  I do respect experience and knowledge and regard your opinions highly. Thanks for your input.
• 
  18

  Out of the Mouths of Vampires

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  one of the most quoted and loved passages of the bible has an unexpected textual history.

  at matt 21:16 jesus is made to say:.

  have you never read, ‘from the mouths of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise for yourself’?”.

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  2. 
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  peacefulpete

  Don't buy into the story that this Psalm was composed in some "Golden Age" of a Solomonic Temple than likely never was.

  I am not under that impression. The Psalms were in fact finally compiled and redacted as some of the latest to be included in the Tanakh, this is well known. However, they do often preserve older material.

  My necessarily brief post may have contributed to your dismissive conclusion. Perhaps carefully reading Smith's article may fill in the many gaps I have left. Psalm 8:2b-3: New Proposals for Old Problems on JSTOR

  As to the 2nd temple dating, that was in fact a time of rebirth of demonology and mysticism as you have elsewhere remarked. IMO, an ancient cosmological hymn that referenced a vanquishing of evil children of El is no more anachronistic than one referencing Leviathan. These names and stories had lost their original cultic importance in some sense, but the themes of creation and divine wisdom made these ancient motifs simultaneously viable and poignant.

  A certain confusion (or discomfort) with the text explains the LXX form.

  Also, the proposed parallel Proverb 30 has inspired Jewish mystics and clerics' embrace of an Aluka demon since very soon after the Psalms were compiled.

  While there are certainly other proposals to explain the difficulties with both texts, (lost vowels, added consonants, scribal error, etc.) this research is not ideologically driven nor conducted by amateurs. Mark Smith for example is among top of his field of Semitic studies and his proposal here is consistent with his extensive knowledge of Hebrew poetry and ANE mythology.
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  18

  Out of the Mouths of Vampires

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  one of the most quoted and loved passages of the bible has an unexpected textual history.

  at matt 21:16 jesus is made to say:.

  have you never read, ‘from the mouths of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise for yourself’?”.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  Sorry that was messy as usual. Very distracted and ran out of time for editing.
• 
  18

  Out of the Mouths of Vampires

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  one of the most quoted and loved passages of the bible has an unexpected textual history.

  at matt 21:16 jesus is made to say:.

  have you never read, ‘from the mouths of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise for yourself’?”.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  peacefulpete

  One of the most quoted and loved passages of the Bible has an unexpected textual history.

  At Matt 21:16 Jesus is made to say:

  Have you never read, ‘FROM THE MOUTHS OF INFANTS AND NURSING BABIES YOU HAVE PREPARED PRAISE FOR YOURSELF’?”

  Many recognize that the Psalm 8:2,3 here quoted in part is a form of the passage found in the LXX. The MT reads differently:

  Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings You have established strength because of Your adversaries, in order to put an end to enemy and avenger.

  Many, many commentators and theologians has commented on this passage since antiquity, in part because the texts reads awkwardly and defies an easy explanation.

  What do sucklings have to do with Yahweh's defeat of his enemy?

  Firstly we must appreciate this is likely the reason the LXX translators opted to creatively alter the text. But it gets complicated.

  Psalm 8:2b-3:New Proposals for Old Problems
  MARK S. SMITH
  Psalm 8 is one of the psalms that have attracted the greatest attention from biblical scholars. While the picture of humanity and the cosmos in Psalm 8 and the psalm's relations with the priestly story of creation in Gen 1 : 1- 2:4a have been the objects of frequent study, the textual difficulties involved in Ps 8:2b-3 have been addressed less often. Despite the variety of proposals for understanding these verses, no rendering advanced to date has been judged satisfactory. The reason lies largely with the text itself, which hardly conforms to the general canons of syntax and parallelism for biblical poetry.

  Smith continues by reviewing the suggestions and the links to a creation myth wherein Yahweh defeats his primeval enemies in the habituating the earth for humans.

  Verse 3 evokes a cosmic conflict at the time of the creation of the universe. The two expressions for cosmic enemies, côlelîm wěyoněqím and *Dôyêb ûmitnaqqëm, are semantically (though not syntactically) parallel. This proposal is informed by the frequent comparison of this passage with CTA 23,offered first by C. Shedl in 1964.11 Called "suckers" ( ynqm ) as in Ps 8:3, the cosmic foes, known also to be children of the god El, devour all the beasts of the cosmos and are remanded to the desert for seven || eight years until they are allowed into the sown region. The putative parallels with Ps 8:3 involve (1) divine "suckers," (2) their appetite that threatens all animals (stressed in Ps 8:3 with the image of their mouth), and (3) the possible cosmogonie setting of this myth. Evidently Ps 8:3 alludes to a related myth (though it is hardly necessary that the same myth be involved). On this view, cólělím wěyoněqím and Doyēb ûmitnaqqêm may be regarded as examples of hendiadys, rendered as such in the translation above. Accordingly, the prepositional phrase preceding cólělím wěyoněqím, namely, mippî (literally, "from the mouth of") does not refer to the material from which the stronghold is built; instead, it constitutes the threat for which the stronghold is need.

  In short the proposal is that the passage has been corrupted and originally was a hymn to Yahweh as mighty defeater of his enemies, who include "suckers", supernatural beings who were children of El but presented a threat to life. A number of other researchers have connected these elements as the referenced provided in his article show.

  The proposed alternate translation is:

  Let me sing/ celebrate your splendor over the heavens.
  From the mouth of (sucker children) suckling babes you established a strong place,
  For your stronghold you indeed ended the avenging enemy.

  By way of parallel another difficult passage in Proverbs 30:15 has defied simple explanation.

  To the leech (Aluka, sucker) are two daughters, 'Give, give'. Lo, three things are not satisfied, Four have not said 'Sufficiency;'

  Many commentators have suggested we have a conflation of proverbs with the verse 15a reference to the sucker having insatiable daughters having lost it's conclusion and 15b simply being the intro to what is now in verse 16.

  The ‛Alûka hath two daughters: Give! Give! (lost )

  Three are never satisfied; Four say not: Enough! The under-world and the closing of the womb, The earth is not satisfied with water, and the fire saith not: Enough!

  This enigmatic sucker has been linked to the Arabic cognate 'awleq' which refers to a sucking demon. (e.g. De Moor).

  So....what we have is another plausible ancient reference to a sucking demon related to the Arabic and Ugarit mythology.

  It is perhaps informative that that was a widely held understanding among Rabbinic and later Jewish mythologists. They expanding this sucking demon into elaborate tales of a shapeshifting bloodsucking witch/demon name Alukah. Alukah - Wikipedia

  Naturally most modern commentators argue against this conclusion, however their suggestions are IMO inadequate.

  
  
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  47

  Solar Eclipse - How Common is It?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  of the 213 moons in our solar system, only ours provides a total solar eclipse.. coincidence?.

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  peacefulpete

  That's deep

  No it's not, that's the point. It is just circular thinking.

  Think of this...Luna's (our moon) orbital plane is at an approximate 5 degree variance to earth's. If it was in proper alignment we would have a total eclipse every new moon and it would be taken in stride.

  But since it is the random way it is, ancient humans living at a location have been freaked out of their minds once in approximately 375 years. (many variables as nothing is astronomy is precise or constant)

  This logically means God wanted to enjoy freaking people out.
  
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  47

  Solar Eclipse - How Common is It?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  of the 213 moons in our solar system, only ours provides a total solar eclipse.. coincidence?.

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  peacefulpete

  If the universe were different, then the universe would not be the same. So God must have done it. That's about the sum of the argument.

  It is the same flawed thinking that leads many to believe in fate or predestination. I was born as a result of infinite contingencies, I must be an act of God. Then God gave me skin cancer..... round and round Christian theologians spin explanations and excuses for how God can be both responsible but not responsible for the universe. That sun that gives energy to our world is at the same time deadly radiation.

  At least the ancient sun worshipers understood the duplicitous nature of their God. The God who gave and took life.
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  35

  The Governing Body Are Proud To announce..

  by Ron.W. in

  1. social
  2. humour

  the governing body are proud to announce... can you finish off the line for them - the more outrageous the better,, .

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  peacefulpete

  The Governing Body are proud to announce…

  The end of the world has been postponed...stay tuned for more on this developing story.
  
  
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  15

  Did you knew the Watchtower has now a Airline? Go see it here...

  by BluePill2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  busy with life .

  but had to share this piece of stupidity.

  flying freely over the evil world wide web i found this image from a recent gilead graduation festival (or whatever they call the crap feast now):.

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  peacefulpete

  Chariklo....Dr. Who. Tom Baker esp.
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  20

  So Let's Say Bigger Change Happens

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  if a change in the blood policy happens, who will be more upset, jws or former jws?

  i suspect the latter.

  when the beard thing went down, jw's seem to immediately embrace it, whereas many former jw's have been brooding about it.. did it take away a pet gripe we had?.

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  peacefulpete

  My intention is not to judge, sorry if somehow I led anyone to feel that way. I am not 'off base' in suggesting we can become stuck in a holding pattern. Unable to progress, caught in a cycle of grief, bound by resentment, tortured by self doubts.

  A counselor insightfully described those feelings as symptoms of incomplete recovery. The refugee metaphor aptly describes the sense of remaining outsiders when surrounded by new people and experiences. This may be normal for a while but if it never passes, that person has lost out on what a new life has to offer.

  If in any way you can relate to this, it's not a sign of failure, it may mean it's time for the next step.