Posts by peacefulpete

42

Is there really a Bible rule against sex without marriage?

by Halcon in

regarding the poster from jw headquarters, who claimed that the gb would eventually loosen the rules regarding sex.

the question is, is there really a bible rule explicitly prohibiting sex without marriage?

because this would be the only possible reason why loosening those rules would even come up in a discussion.

peacefulpete

I have trouble with quotations, for some reason I'm unable to resume typing after one without it all being in the quotation.

42

Is there really a Bible rule against sex without marriage?

by Halcon in

regarding the poster from jw headquarters, who claimed that the gb would eventually loosen the rules regarding sex.

the question is, is there really a bible rule explicitly prohibiting sex without marriage?

because this would be the only possible reason why loosening those rules would even come up in a discussion.

peacefulpete

(Porneia) fornication is not defined as hetero-sex between a single man and woman in love. Certain Pauline comments have been interpreted as such, but it is not explicit.

Basically because passages like 1 Cor 7:
Nevertheless, to avoid porneia, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
lend to that interpretation. However, a careful reading only says that without an outlet for sexual desire, porneia is a greater temptation. It does not define porneia in this passage.
Further, the author's argument is hard to follow, as they suggest that unlike other "sins" poneia involves a person's sinning against their own bodies. 1 Cor 6
12 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.” The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”[b] 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.[c]18 Flee from porneia. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever does porneia, sins against their own body.

His argument as I said is hard to follow. He is at one hand saying Christians have a right to do things but there is something ritualistically, sacramentally inappropriate about porneia. He lifts the "one flesh" from Genesis and literalizes it as sexual coupling. He then uses it metaphorically as union of spirit with Christ. It adds an odd sexual element to the Christian union with Christ. It also doesn't explain how a married Christian who has sex with their partner isn't also "cheating" on Christ as it were. It's not a good argument. He also seems to specify prostitution as porneia.

As a side note, from the standpoint of the unique WT interpretation of these passages, the objection ought not apply to "Other Sheep" who do not share in the death and body of Christ.
I have resisted in this instance saying "Paul" wrote this or that because many of these sections in 1Cor show evidence of at least 2 layers of interpolation. One very early, one about a century later. That is another huge topic.

42

Is there really a Bible rule against sex without marriage?

by Halcon in

regarding the poster from jw headquarters, who claimed that the gb would eventually loosen the rules regarding sex.

the question is, is there really a bible rule explicitly prohibiting sex without marriage?

because this would be the only possible reason why loosening those rules would even come up in a discussion.

For those who find it relevant, to be brief, nowhere does the Bible anywhere come out and say, premarital sex or intimate touching is forbidden. As Vidiot said, the concern revolved around the notion of possession. The law as described in Ex 22 suggests the seducing and laying of a virgin, might make the guy obliged to marry her if her father demanded it, but only required the compensation of a dowry equivalent if the father finds him objectionable. As damaged goods the father was owed compensation either way. Deut 22 which is basically a rewrite of Ex 22 adds that the guy HAS to marry the girl and can never divorce her as long as he lives. It also adds a story about a guy who marries a girl but who then claims her to not have been a virgin, is really a bizarre one. The parents of the girl are obliged to provide evidence (cloth) that she was a virgin, lest she be stoned at the door of her father's house. Again, the key is that while she was in her father's house she was not to have secretly had sex, putting her father's reputation as the owner of the girl at risk. The story is pretty silly. How did the parents have proof of her virginity (understood as a bloody cloth) without the husband's awareness?? Note that the girl could not provide the proof herself, her testimony wasn't relevant. Further, how hard would it be to provide a cloth with blood on it to save your own reputation and daughter's life?

Like much of the primary history, these rules reflect the often-contradictory sexist views of scribes from the 2nd temple period, and likely never was actually an enforceable code. These writings represented a moral aesthetic not a law as implied.

43

Beautiful photos

by LoveUniHateExams in

so, i thought i'd start a thread about any beautiful photos of places you've been to, or just beautiful photos.. i'll go first .... .

.

copyright: daniel burton.. this is bøur, a little village in the faeroe islands, population 74.. i've never been there but i'd love to visit one day.

peacefulpete

Beautiful places, thanks for sharing. Most of our photos are printed. I've tried pasting them in the box but doesn't work.

9

Remember that they really control a Community

by EdLogan in

jw
friends

there's a lot going on, and a lot of saying.the interpretation of the scriptures, their internal doctrine and their policy change.. the 1914, 1919 and its consequences.. the birthdays and other holidays.. the beard, the tie, the slacks.. the "hi, nice to see you here".. but at the end of the day, what they're in control of, is a community.

a society of people.

and a corporation as well, that controls all this.. many of them don't even really mind about those changes.

peacefulpete

Waking someone up can be either giving something to them or taking something from them. The circumstances make all the difference. None of my family or former JW friends could say I tried to get them to leave the church. (though one lied and said I had). However, none of those people would be turned away if they honestly had questions. If someone is seeking resolution for their doubts, I feel an obligation to them. Sometimes on this forum, I make an assumption that posters are in that situation. I feel so much sympathy for those struggling with apocalyptic fear and sense of unworthiness or those torn over loyalties to the church or love for family.

76

Rekindled Light — The Narrative Structure of the Hexaemeron (Genesis 1:1–31)

by Mebaqqer2 in

i used to comment here many years ago when i had an interest in biblical research in relation to jehovah’s witnesses.

these days my biblical research is little concerned with jehovah’s witnesses.

i feel my time is better spent researching the diachronistic development of the biblical text and ascertaining what the biblical writers and editors intended in the times in which they lived.. i have recently placed a summary diagram for a paper that i have written with original research entitled the narrative structure of the hexaemeron on academia.edu.

peacefulpete

There is nothing wrong with the legitimacy of the website, and as far as I can see Mebaqqwer2 gives appropriate references. I'll repeat that his submission is well presented. You can make an account without providing a credit card or confidential information. At least I could years ago.

8

2024 What's Afoot with World Religions?

by KerryKing in

the parliament of the world's religions, member of the united religions initiative, has on their website a focus24 page, they call this year the year of democracy.. apparently an unusually large proportion of the world's countries are holding national elections this year, it's certainly the case here in ireland.

this somehow is the focus of their mission, it reads well, you know peace, love and justice etc.

i am wondering if the the watchtower society is a part of this movement, seeing as they have the 501c3 agreement they are also a state church, therefore bound to follow the states laws and regulations for fear of fines or loss of the 501c3 religious charity status, loss of tax exemption etc.. if so, we could be seeing many more changes this year.. does anyone have more detailed info on what rules and regulations 501c3 religious charities have to comply with?

peacefulpete

Thank you peacefulpete for your peaceful comment. Much respect

Well, I meant it to be pointed. Having gained some degree of separation from the church, perhaps it is time to reconsider how much of the conspiracies of the church still shape your outlook on life.

respect

8

2024 What's Afoot with World Religions?

by KerryKing in

the parliament of the world's religions, member of the united religions initiative, has on their website a focus24 page, they call this year the year of democracy.. apparently an unusually large proportion of the world's countries are holding national elections this year, it's certainly the case here in ireland.

this somehow is the focus of their mission, it reads well, you know peace, love and justice etc.

i am wondering if the the watchtower society is a part of this movement, seeing as they have the 501c3 agreement they are also a state church, therefore bound to follow the states laws and regulations for fear of fines or loss of the 501c3 religious charity status, loss of tax exemption etc.. if so, we could be seeing many more changes this year.. does anyone have more detailed info on what rules and regulations 501c3 religious charities have to comply with?

peacefulpete

You may be separated from the people but their dystopian paranoid fever dreams seem to have stayed with you.

76

Rekindled Light — The Narrative Structure of the Hexaemeron (Genesis 1:1–31)

by Mebaqqer2 in

i used to comment here many years ago when i had an interest in biblical research in relation to jehovah’s witnesses.

these days my biblical research is little concerned with jehovah’s witnesses.

i feel my time is better spent researching the diachronistic development of the biblical text and ascertaining what the biblical writers and editors intended in the times in which they lived.. i have recently placed a summary diagram for a paper that i have written with original research entitled the narrative structure of the hexaemeron on academia.edu.

peacefulpete

Well, I posted a couple threads on this forum on the topic in case you were unaware of the subject. Leolaia was certainly not the end of any discussion, in fact we disagreed on many finer points. I would also imagine she would have sharpened her understanding over the last 20 years (as I have) as well. To anyone interested in this topic, however, her reviews were a great resource from which to pursue further research.

On this topic, while I find Tsumura’s primary arguments sound, his conclusions/objections are something of red herrings. He seems to believe he is making observations others are unaware of. While some, especially early in the history of comparative religion research, may have suggested the authors retained the chaos theology, recent scholarship points out the language reflects a cultural linkage/indebtedness. Especially considering the lateness of the hexaemeron (5th-3rd) we would not expect the author to be simply repeating creation stories from a thousand years previous. He rather demonstrates the persistence of an ancient motif. Much like today when we refer to 'forbidden fruit' or making someone a 'scapegoat', these are metaphors/idioms/motifs that carry meaning separate from the larger specific religious origins. Cross used to say, when the language no longer posed a threat to the scribal elites, they were adopted and transformed in subtle ways. However, it's not just the words it's also some underlying conceptual theme that persists. In other words, my audience knows what being a 'scapegoat' is even if most have no idea where it came from nor are religiously Jewish.

In the case of the dividing waters, the idiom is also utilized in fresh ways by the second temple author/redactors. It would seem in many contexts the symbolism is no longer narrowly related to 'creation' but fresh beginnings and demonstrations of divine power. Note in the exodus stories the similar elements of tehom/yam interacting with wind/breath from God parting the sea as a divine act opening a new chapter for Israel. Perhaps the author intended a back reference to Gen 1 (as I suggested), perhaps not consciously. Regardless the idiom and motif are present.

So, I'm convinced the shaping of a formless world into a habitable world, and of dividing waters as are clear examples of inherited metaphor that was recognized by nearly anyone in the ANE.

As I said in my first post it's a hobby for me, hobbies should be fun. I don't feel like we're having fun any longer, so I'll let you go. Good luck with your research.

23

When will the Watchtower Society be desolated?

by Hiddenservant in

did you know that the answer is provided in the scriptures through the 70 weeks prophecy?.

daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy explained.. the 70 weeks were split into three parts.

here is the reason why.. the prophecy is not only about the messiah, it is also about god’s people and the holy city, as verse 24 makes clear.