Posts by peacefulpete

23

Is there really any universal issue of Sovereignty?

by Linda14 in

i can agree that satan doesn't see god as a good ruler as stated at gen 3:1-5. he doesn't seem to see gods laws as right or good.

but whether there is an understanding/agreement between god and satan afterward to the effect that he can take the mantle of rulership to show whether his style is best is doubtful.

that conclusion is probably reached because god hasn't destroyed satan, and he is also called the ruler of the world in the bible.

peacefulpete

It's a lot to unpack Linda, but for a moment think of the layers upon layers of interpretation that is required to arrive at a conclusion like the Universal Sovereignty (aka Great Controversy) doctrine of Adventists like the JWs.

Think of religion as a process of reinterpretation rather than revelation.

Words and symbols of one generation take on new relevance when seen in new novel ways by a later one. The Eden story in Genesis is part of the (J ) Yahwist story of creation. He is a clever writer who uses imagery and symbols from his surrounding culture in fresh ways. The goddess worshipped throughout Middle East as the "Mother of all" was symbolized by a serpent and tree. Here the worshiper of Yahweh takes those symbols and recasts them as the agents of death. The man is tempted by the woman Eve (defined as 'the mother of all') by means of a snake and tree. The woman gets pain and domination, the tree is never heard from again and the snake gets humiliated by having to crawl on the ground without legs and bite heels of people who kill snakes whenever they get the chance. This process of reinterpretation does not end there. The symbols that once played a small role in a small story, fascinated readers, centuries later, who understood these words as a code for spiritual secrets. Suddenly the snake was not just a snake but reinterpreted as code for a spirit being, the fruit became sex or something of cosmic importance.

I see that the rest of your comment shows an awakening of your mind. Keep asking questions.

208

How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?

by psyco in

i remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.

thanks..

peacefulpete

OK, lets take this a step further, the book of Jeremiah reads that he (Jeremiah) was himself interested in returning to Jerusalem to rebuild there and is allowed to go back under Gedaliah. Then after Gedaliah is assassinated ,some years later, Jeremiah is declaring in God's name they should not flee but remain! Anyone who flees will be killed or die horribly by disease. Then he said to have been forcibly dragged to Egypt.

4So Johanan the son of Kareah and all the commanders of the forces, and all the people, did not obey the voice of the LORD to stay in the land of Judah.

When in Egypt, Jeremiah just like Ezekiel, declares Nebuchadnezzar will destroy Egypt and burn all it's temples.

8Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah in Tahpanhes, saying, 9“Take some large stones in your hands and hide them in the mortar in the brick terrace which is at the entrance of Pharaoh’s palace in Tahpanhes, in the sight of some of the Jews; 10and say to them, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, “Behold, I am going to send and get Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant, and I am going to set his throne right over these stones that I have hidden; and he will spread his canopy over them. 11“He will also come and strike the land of Egypt; those who are meant for death will be given over to death, and those for captivity to captivity, and those for the sword to the sword. 12“And I shall set fire to the temples of the gods of Egypt, and he will burn them and take them captive. So he will wrap himself with the land of Egypt as a shepherd wraps himself with his garment, and he will depart from there safely. 13“He will also shatter the obelisks of Heliopolis, which is in the land of Egypt; and the temples of the gods of Egypt he will burn with fire.”’”

This just like Ezekiel's prophecy never happens.

A simple observation is that the word ALL gets used a lot in the language of prophets. Maybe it's a translating thing.

26

Details of Noah’s Ark

by enigma1863 in

jw magazines have claimed the flood story has so much detail that it couldn’t be just a made up story.. is it detailed?

name one person outside of noah’s family.

name one nephilim.

peacefulpete

Booger...the word no more necessitates a strict box shape here than it does in the Moses story. Using a strictly etymologically presumed root word to dogmatically define the present word is not good linguistic practice. That said, I'm inclined to agree the author gave no thought to the seaworthiness of the vessel, and pictured a box to keep valuables in.

208

How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?

by psyco in

i remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.

thanks..

peacefulpete

😂 ok I guess we will just again forget Gedaliah.

14

Could the law abiding Jesus or his disciples have used a coin depicting Caesar?

by EdenOne in

so, i was just viewing an interview with professor yonathan adler regarding the origins of judaism as an everyday practice of the masses.

he makes a very convincing argument that the jews only became torah observants in a generalized way around the beginning of the hasmonean dynasty, between the 3rd and 2nd centuries bc.

you can watch the interview here:.

peacefulpete

We seem to be talking past each other. The only point I was making was the presence of a Ceasar on the coin in the Jesus story dates the story after 70. Or by someone unfamiliar with the Idumean coinage. Especially the way it is written with the assumption of the image on the coin.

I was not commenting on the question of whether Jews would have handled such a coin. My last post shows that at least post 70, when Idumean coins had Ceasar on them, they were in use, even minted by them. Maybe this reflects a compromise of necessity?

208

How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?

by psyco in

i remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.

thanks..

peacefulpete

OK, forgive me if this has been already mentioned. This was posted some years ago:

Isaiah’s Prophecy – Light for all Mankind Volume I; page 253 paragraph 21:
Isaiah goes on to prophesy: “It must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king.” (Isaiah 23:15a) Following the destruction of the mainland city by the Babylonians, the island-city of Tyre will “be forgotten.” True to the prophecy, for the duration of “one king” – the Babylonian Empire – the island-city of Tyre will not be an important financial power. Jehovah, through Jeremiah, includes Tyre among the nations that will be singled out to drink the wine of His rage. He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17,22,27) True the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination – when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble. What will then happen to Tyre?

The Society does NOT take the seventy years of judgment against Tyre as being literal. Their interpretation is that the seventy years applied to Tyre is FIGURATIVE – it stands “ROUGHLY” as the time of Babylon’s greatest domination.

Now as regards Tyre, no it never fell to Babylon.

Post from old thread:

There was no such city as "mainland Tyre". The nearby city on the Lebanese coast was instead called Hosah in the Bible and Osa and Ushu in Egyptian and Akkadian inscriptions. These were suburbs of Tyre but were not called Tyre; Ezekiel in fact called the mainland suburbs "Tyre's daughters" (Ezekiel 26:6, 8, "settlements on the mainland" in the NIV), not Tyre itself. Tyre was an island city and was described repeatedly as such by Ezekiel, who described it as "in the midst of the sea" (26:5), "powerful in the sea" (26:17), as having its borders "in the heart of the seas" (27:4), as being like a ship in the sea (27:27-34), and whose king declares himself as "surrounded by seas" (28:2).
The city that Ezekiel describes as razed and thrown into the sea was island Tyre, an event that would leave the island as bare as a shiny rock. This was not a mainland city and Ezekiel did not refer to Hosah as "Tyre" but as "her daughters on the mainland" (which were already destroyed in v. 8 before Nebuchadnezzar then besieges Tyre itself in v. 9-14).

That the Babylonian siege of Tyre was unsuccessful even Ezekiel (apparently in later reflection) reports: Ezekiel 29:18,19

18"Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon caused his army to serve a hard service against Tyre: every head was made bald and every shoulder was peeled; yet had he no wages, nor his army, from Tyre for the service that he had served against it. 19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; and he shall take her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army. 20 I have given him the land of Egypt for his labor for which he served against it, because they wrought for Me, saith the Lord GOD

BTW...It probably looked that Babylon would conquer Egypt and it did invade around the time Ezekiel said those words. But they failed. So Ezekiel is 0 for 2.

14

Could the law abiding Jesus or his disciples have used a coin depicting Caesar?

by EdenOne in

so, i was just viewing an interview with professor yonathan adler regarding the origins of judaism as an everyday practice of the masses.

he makes a very convincing argument that the jews only became torah observants in a generalized way around the beginning of the hasmonean dynasty, between the 3rd and 2nd centuries bc.

you can watch the interview here:.

peacefulpete

The issue regarding coins was the presence of the image of Ceasar. This had to have been Vespasian or later. Prior to then, according to Adler, the Roman Idumean coinage was without the image of Ceasar in deference to the Jews. Interestingly the Vespasian coinage commemorating the Roman assault of 70 (now with Ceasar's image) was minted by the Jews themselves by the last of the Herodian kings Agrippa II.

14

Could the law abiding Jesus or his disciples have used a coin depicting Caesar?

by EdenOne in

so, i was just viewing an interview with professor yonathan adler regarding the origins of judaism as an everyday practice of the masses.

he makes a very convincing argument that the jews only became torah observants in a generalized way around the beginning of the hasmonean dynasty, between the 3rd and 2nd centuries bc.

you can watch the interview here:.

peacefulpete

I think Prof. Adler is stating what has been known for some time. Whenever weighing the historical usefulness of ancient writings, it's necessary to recall that winners wrote it. What we can be pretty sure of is the primary history of the Jewish faith was a 're-creation' of the deep past using ancient diverse traditions mixed with religious idealism of the 6th century BCE then further revised and reinterpreted during the Hasmonean period. Later Rabbis developed the concept of a mythic Great Assembly, (led by the last of the prophets), that defined and even rewrote the OT (Tanakh) during those years to, IMO, give authority to these revisions recognized by careful readers.

The 'winners' that eventually defined Judaism after 70/135 spawned from the Pharisee sect, and with them came the Tanakh and Torah. Most of the other Jews becoming absorbed into them or other sects such as the diverse forms of Christianity that disavowed the Torah. Those were largely the choices.

His comments about the coins must be regarded as another evidence the Gospel narrative dates to post 70.

26

Details of Noah’s Ark

by enigma1863 in

jw magazines have claimed the flood story has so much detail that it couldn’t be just a made up story.. is it detailed?

name one person outside of noah’s family.

name one nephilim.

peacefulpete

Boogerman....The word used for the ark is an Egyptian loanword teebah. Its only other usage is the 'basket' of bulrushes that Moses was riding on the Nile waters. (in contrast to the word 'aron' used to describe the sacred ark/chest). The word choice seems deliberate literary means of equating the stories on a symbolic level. The motif of passing through waters is a recurring word picture depicting 'new beginnings' throughout the Bible, likely drawn from the creation stories description of splitting the waters.

Readers of the Noah stories with some sailing experience, recognize the impossibility of a square sided box not being crushed or capsized and have assumed the writer must have envisioned a boat shape to withstand the incredible power of waves. If you have ever been in a boat on rough water the first thing you do is point the bow into the oncoming wave to not be flipped. The wave energy is dissipated by the shape of the hull whereby the boat gently lifts rather than tossed. Don't fault the artists who assume the boat shape, they are trying to rescue the story.

10

Micah 6:8

by enoughisenough in

i saw this in a video sometime back ( don't remember now ) but it caught my attention...micah 6:8 was changed in the "silver sword" ...they changed the words in that scripture from " to love kindness" or in some versions to "love mercy" or "love grace" or "love goodness" to nwt silver : " to cherish loyalty".

sometime afterward there would be articles about being loyal to the organization.

some of you may recall this.

peacefulpete

enough...Translators of necessity introduce new viewpoints to the work. modern values, personal biases, interpretive choices. Functionally the words used by translations for 'checed' each carry a nuanced meaning. So no, these words cannot all equally accurately convey the meaning of checed in any particular usage.

The WT is making a choice to use 'loyalty'.