Posts by peacefulpete

7

Internal server error

by peacefulpete in

i've had this happen a number of times.

i know an archived thread regarding luke 22:exists as i was recently reading it, but now is no longer available.

it does not come up when using any combination of words that i know to be in the thread.

peacefulpete

I was able to locate the thread on Luke 22 through a lengthy process but the Cellist thread is still missing.

19

bart ehrman delivered this presidential address to the audience gathered at the southeastern commission for the study of religion in macon, georgia, on march 14, 1997. a fuller discussion of the textual variants mentioned below (luke 22:19-20) can be found in ehrman's book the orthodox corruption of scripture, pp.

interpreters of the nt are faced with a discomforting reality that many of them would like to ignore.

in many instances, we don't know what the authors of the nt actually wrote.

peacefulpete

This thread is relevant to recent discussions regarding the ransom theory.

7

Internal server error

by peacefulpete in

i've had this happen a number of times.

i know an archived thread regarding luke 22:exists as i was recently reading it, but now is no longer available.

it does not come up when using any combination of words that i know to be in the thread.

peacefulpete

I've had this happen a number of times. I know an archived thread regarding Luke 22:exists as I was recently reading it, but now is no longer available. It does not come up when using any combination of words that I know to be in the thread. Similarly, a thread by Cellist (who no longer appears in the list of members for some reason) was linked in another thread. The result is "this page isn't working now". If I cut and past the thread title it says, Internal server error. Any explanation?

58

Did the ransom sacrifice even work?

by Sharpie in

shower thought entered my mind the other day... jesus christ.

as per doctrine.

is still alive in heaven right now correct?

peacefulpete

As regards your appeal to Christain creed, your example illustrates the problem. First, as you are aware I'm sure, the creed is widely regarded as an interpolation that interrupts the discussion. Since we have reason to be at least skeptical of it's being Paul, and more importantly it doesn't define anything bearing on this topic, it doesn't form much of an argument regarding the theory of ransom.

But since you brought it up, notice that the creed contradicts the Gospel/Acts tradition and Galatians on a number of points. It is for this reason many scholars, even highly critical ones date (at least the first 2 verses of) the creed to a period before the Gospels and introduced into Paul fairly early.

R.Price has made reasonable arguments that the entirety was introduced post-Acts and was a result of a merging of rival Petrine and Jamesian sects' creeds.

Consider carefully reading this somewhat long article: Apocryphal Apparitions by Robert M. Price (mindvendor.com)

Something else I find glaring about the Creed is repeated appeal to "according to the scriptures". What scriptures? if the Gospels are implied, we have come to end of the discussion, it is clearly a late interpolation. If they refer to the Tanakh OT, then more difficult questions arise. Most assume the "scriptures" meant the Jonah story or possibly Hosea 6:2. This itself supports the position that the Christ story in all aspects were drawn from OT and seen through eyes of faith and eisegesis. This was subsequently allegedlyy confirmed through apparitions and visions of James the Just (not yet brother of Jesus) and Cephus. (not yet the rock of proto-catholic tradition). The 12 reference creates another set of issues I don't have time to discuss here.

So what we might reasonably conclude is that elements of the creed date to a period before the Gospel traditions. Likely the creed as it reads today is a patchwork of these early elements with later addenda referencing 500 and Paul.

58

Did the ransom sacrifice even work?

by Sharpie in

shower thought entered my mind the other day... jesus christ.

as per doctrine.

is still alive in heaven right now correct?

peacefulpete

Seabreeze. ..None of your comment explains the wide diversity of views very early in Xtian history. It seems clear to me that the story took hold in the imagination before theologians formulated it through metaphor.

The NT (and later theology) use a number of images in their interpretive schemes; taken literally they are, often, mutually exclusive. For instance, a ransom (paid to the master of a slave or captive to obtain his freedom, or, rather, make him a slave of or a captive to the redeemer) has nothing to do with a sacrifice (offered to a deity, either to make it favorable, as in propitiation, or to erase a certain "sin," as in expiation). The conflation of those two images (one from a commercial setting, the other from a sacral setting) in the WT catchphrase "ransom sacrifice" is literally nonsensical: if taken allegorically a ransom would have to be paid to the devil, or to personified "sin," whereas a sacrifice would be offered to "God". There is no problem in using mutually exclusive images as long as they are taken metaphorically: we simply have an indefinite number of metaphors pointing from different angles to "something" which remains essentially undefined. In one word: a mystery.

Redemption, Reductions.

58

Did the ransom sacrifice even work?

by Sharpie in

shower thought entered my mind the other day... jesus christ.

as per doctrine.

is still alive in heaven right now correct?

peacefulpete

It's one of the threads that if pulled on hard reveals a lot about early Xtian origins and doctrine. Surprising to many is that some of the earliest forms of Christianity held no salvific importance to the death of the Christ. The various forms of what's called docetic Xtianity, dating from the 1rst century, even held the death to have been an illusion or purely mystical. Their Christ was a teacher and agent of the divine that opened eyes to truths. Clearly, they did not have a ransom doctrine. Even among those who sought to counter these views could not agree on why Christ had to die.

Very early layers seem to include the idea that the physical death of the Christ was almost irrelevant other than capping off the story of the incarnation. The incarnation of God into human form was seen as the saving redeeming act. It elevated human potential to becoming like Christ. He opened the way as it were. To others the death was interpreted as sacrificial in an expiatory fashion yet required beneficiaries act Christlike even to suffer and die to be elevated to Christ's nature. No concept of a monetary ransom from someone. Some seem to have used the term translated "ransom" to mean redeemed. Like the OT passages this implied the standing with God was remedied not that a tit for tat exchange took place. In short, the storyline that Christ descended and was killed, begged for theologians to interpret the how's and whys. Numerous textual alterations are evident today that reveal an active effort to refute one or more of these theological views. Docetism was 'disproven' by repeated references to blood and flesh. If the blood and flesh were essential aspects of the death, then that required more theological theory. I'm tired now, but if anyone wants to break into this I can.

2

UNITED NATIONS

by JohnTron7 in

well, i wanted to write again and see if anyone else out there is more agreeable now with what i have posted on here for a few years and often scoffed at (did get one maybe).

since my older post were pulled except for one 5 months ago, how many now would agree with the escalating backlash of lgbtq laws and pro lgbtq supporters now flooding every form of media, who now will agree that it will not be the united nations that bring about the turn of government against religions but, instead the record number of lgbtq lawmakers in the senate that will enevitatily cause the turn against religion?

jesus said the last days will be like the days of noah and that would mean badness everywhere because of the offspring children (nephalim).

peacefulpete

Churches are free to be racist, bigoted and sexist if they want. They can even mock and insult the handicapped.

27

Common sense on Jockland's gender Bill

by LoveUniHateExams in

nicola sturgeon's daft plan to introduce a gender bill which allows anyone aged 16 and over to legally change gender without a doctor's diagnosis of gender dysphoria has rightly been stopped by pm rishi sunak.. under the rules of devolvement, the uk government can overrule holyrood if the pm so chooses.. lots of predictable howling form the scotch nuts, with ridiculous claims that rishi is trying to organise a fight with holyrood.

of course, it's actually the other way round - the snp has been trying to pass this gender bill in order to drive a wedge between scotland and the rest of the uk.. sensibly, rishi has pulled rank on sturgeon and stopped her nonsense.. nicola sturgeon needs to know her place ....

peacefulpete

it would be interesting to see the rates for sexual abuse, and what proportion of trans inmates are in there for sex crimes

What is 'interesting' is the rates of assault against trans people. Nearly 1 in 2 will be assaulted in their lifetimes as compared to the also horrific stat that 1 in 5 sis women will be. 1 in 71 sis men will be.

Sexual Violence Statistics in Transgender and Non-Binary Communities (kmdlaw.com)

170

Staying in physically for all the benefits

by Indoubtbigtime in

i wonder how many are like me staying pimo for the great association and gathering etc.

also find it very interesting having a front row seat watching the collapse of borg.. im not wasting any more time or money on anything i don’t want to do like preaching and mostly just go on zoom .

there is nothing i want to do that would be considered disfellowshiping sin, i’m married and want to live by bible principles but i have serious doubts that the gb were chosen by god and are his one and only spokesmen on earth.

peacefulpete

PIMOs, I bet your families are aware of what you think is concealed. They probably talk about it among themselves and with Elders. They may not want to press the issue for fear of losing you. Sometimes silence is best, but lying and pretending corrodes trust and intimacy, and isn't that why we have relationships?

27

Common sense on Jockland's gender Bill

by LoveUniHateExams in

nicola sturgeon's daft plan to introduce a gender bill which allows anyone aged 16 and over to legally change gender without a doctor's diagnosis of gender dysphoria has rightly been stopped by pm rishi sunak.. under the rules of devolvement, the uk government can overrule holyrood if the pm so chooses.. lots of predictable howling form the scotch nuts, with ridiculous claims that rishi is trying to organise a fight with holyrood.

of course, it's actually the other way round - the snp has been trying to pass this gender bill in order to drive a wedge between scotland and the rest of the uk.. sensibly, rishi has pulled rank on sturgeon and stopped her nonsense.. nicola sturgeon needs to know her place ....

peacefulpete

My nephew now identifies as a woman. She's the same caring intelligent person, just now acting and looking like she always felt she should have. She's not a pervert or rapist. She left the WT because of bigoted comments like these.